The rifle is fairly new and has only been fired out to 100 yards. I will test it out at 200 and further in the coming weeks.
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The rifle is fairly new and has only been fired out to 100 yards. I will test it out at 200 and further in the coming weeks.
let me know the results. I am not looking for sniper quality, just center of mass hits
Hi everyone,
I read Molon's posts on the trajectories in this thread. He seems to have lots of good insight on this subject, and since I'm a newbie, I thought Id ask.....
I just bought my first AR..it's a DanielDefense M4 with a 16" barrel. I got a good deal on PMC 5.56 x-tac ammo (62grains), so that's what i've been shooting.
My question to you is: Are these following results ok/normal? (i used iron sights)
At 50 yards, after 10 shots I was consistently grouped about 3/4" inch low. I left my sights alone and then took 10 shots at 100yds. I was about 3" high at 100yd. I went to 200yds and had a 7" group all around the center. They didnt seem to be too high, nor too low.
If I'm a little low at 50, is it w/in reason to be 3" high at 100yd, then back to zero at 200?
I keep looking at the charts/graphs and breaking this stuff down. Im guessing my PMC 62 grain ammo preforms closer to the 855, than it does the 193 round.
Thank you very much for any insight anyone could provide,
~Billy
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BB,
Congrats on the fine rifle.
50 yards is an "about" near zero for most guns and most 50g to 62g ammo.
Sounds like you did things correctly, which is shoot at the near zero and then verify at the far zero.
But maybe it's just me...
.
wow......great thread.
The first time I went thru this thread I couldn't get most of the graphics to display (I use Firefox). Tried and tried with no success. It was still a great thread with more useful info than anything else I have seen.
I just tried it with IE 8 and the graphics DO show up. Upgrade rating to an amazing thread.
On a side note; I have ready access to a 100yd range, 200 is much harder to get to. From the trajectory charts, it looks like I will be doing a 50 yard zero and verifying 1.5 to 1.6 inches high at 100 yards. That should put me pretty close at 225yd right.
Thanks for all the help. I bought an Eotech and it and the irons all line up great. 50yd and 200yd is a great way to zero, Thanks again
I use RIBZ on a stock, plain Jane CMMG mid-length AR. After a 50 zero, I took the rifle to the 200 yard range and without making any adjustments of any kind and on a 82 degree F day, I shot at my target, results were about .75 MOA group above the X ring.
I did the same 50yd zero as I did w/ my 16" DD, and at 100yd it was still grouping about 2" high, but when I went back to 200yd, the group was pretty consistent at about 4" low (where my 16"DD was only about an inch or less low)
Does a 14.5 barrel slow the bullet velocity down, and would a muzzlebrake slow it even more?
The groups were pretty tight, but just a lil lower @200yd than I had anticipated.
Thanks for any feedback/insight! :)
Yes, and yes! LOL
PMC 62grain. However, it was the same ammo that I was using in my DD 16" that was about 2" high (at 100yd) and zero'd at 200yd
Great Thread Molon I will be going out and sighting in my AR again after I paint it this winter. Again thanks for the great info.
I have a Colt 6920, 1:7 twist 16in. detachable carry handle, firing xm193, and I followed the IBZ instructions and was able to group very well at 100 yards using -6 clicks, and I also grouped very well at 50 yards, -4 clicks using the small, unmarked aperture. My question is if I return the rear setting to 6/3 and use the 0-2 large aperture will my rifle shoot POA/POI inside 0-200 yards? Thank you in advance for any responses.
In Houston were are recommending the 50 yard zero.
What the 0-2 sight is for is fighting inside of 200 yards. It's not supposed to be a precision shooting aperture. Short answer, no. Long answer, Yes, if you were capable of lining the front sight post up dead center of that aperture consistently, and hold it there, you would theoretically shoot POA/POI or very close to it. I have yet to meet anyone who can do it consistently.
For precision aimed shots, use the small aperture, even inside of 200. For quick target aquisition using iron sights, use the 0-2 sight, but don't adjust your elevation to use it, because it really serves you no purpose. Just put the tip of the front sight post relatively in the middle of the aperture, and pull the trigger. It's basically a bullet hose sight, as it realistically would only be good for suppressing fire on an area.
Yes, I would like to hear from people running 70-75 grain ammo out of shorte barrels as well. I am running 70gr tsx and 75gr otm's out of a 14.5" using an aimpoint, and when I zero at 50 I am a good 2" high at 100. 100 yards is all I I currently have access to. So how is the hevier stuff doing out past 200 with a 50 yard zero?
A great explanation of the M4 zero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgyRBqcsRcE
Oh I know man. This thread is top notch! Some guys just need the simple part explained with crayons and a white board. I have had to explain the fact that bullets do not generate "lift" and flight like the foil on wings to too many buddies. Figured some guys would "get it" with the explanation.
I found that the US Army sighting targets will get the job done fairly good.
A great thread with well stated information. Thanks for efforts.
One quiet range day, this discussion came up.
Our patrol rifles are zeroed at 50 yards. The training
includes firing at 7 yards to demonstrate the height over bore relationship between POA/POI. The theory being that a threat at relatively short range is exposing only a small portion of their head and the POA would have to be at the top of his head to strike between the eyes.
Assuming this theory is valid, if the height over bore is 2 ¼ inches, and we zeroed the sights so POI was 2 ¼ below POA at a distance of 5 yards (or whatever), would the results be a 50 yard zero.
We tried it just for kicks and it appears to provide a reasonable zero. Adjustments are very critical.
Again, thanks for the invaluable information, well illustrated.
Just a big "thanks" for this thread -- Got more usable info and more understanding on what's going on 'in the air' from the first page of this thread than the sum total of everything everyone has tried to explain to me.
Looking forward to sighting things in with a a little more confidence.
Yes thanks a lot guys! This thread is very helpful to a newbie like myself. Gives me a much better understanding of bullet trajectories. Thanks for the information.
I'm getting ready to change to a 11.5" upper for work. I use the 50 yard battlezero on my 16" now. Is the 50 yard zero as flat & useful on the 11.5" as it was on my 16" barrel? Duty ammo is Hornady TAP 55gr and both barrels have a 1:7 twist. Thanks for any/all help.
Stay safe.
Great info! Thanks.
A 50 yard zero is basically going to be the same between the two. For LEO work, you're almost better off with a 100 yard zero. It's a flatter trajectory and holds are simpler. That and your zero basically means that 300 yards is about your maximum range before you get severe bullet drop. For LEO work, if you're shooting your patrol rifle farther than that, you dun goofed.
great info, thanks!
The instructions say they are for 8/3, mine are 6/3? What should I do?
if you are using a 11.5 inch barrel, I would recommend sighting in at 25 yards. 11.5 are for CQB and have no practicle use past 200. 200 is really pushing it for an 11.5. Our motor units carry 11.5 on the bikes and we sight them in at 25yd. 11.5 lose a lot of velocity regardless of what ammo you are using. You have to pick the right rifle for the job. If you are in an urban environment, look across the street and depending on where you live, that could be between 25-50 yards. I would never use a 11.5 unless it was an entry. I would stick to 14.5 or 16 for urban. :big_boss:
A 25 meter zero actually makes 0 to 200 meter engagements (specifically the 0 to 25) more difficult than the other zeroing methods (50/200 or 100 meter POA/POI zeroes). Take a look at the trajectory charts in this thread and take a look at the linked thread for more information:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107572
For 6/3 marked sights you will need to be able to fully reach 6/3(- 4).
That is 4 full clicks "below" 6/3. Lots of folks will have their sights set so that they can go to (-5), but set it on (-4) to ensure that they have the detent fully rested.
The reason is that the 6/3 marked sights have half of the adjustment as the 8/3 marked sights per click, therefore you need to use twice as many clicks to travel the same distance.
Dear God. That just sounds like a whole truckload of bad advice and bad information, largely gleaned from folklore, out of date theory, and Internet reading.
What happens when one of those motor cops arrives at a parking lot and starts winging shots out across the open prairie at some similarly-armed bad guy?
With modern ammunition choices the maximum effective range of the 5.56, even out of shorter barrels, is greatly increased, and even if it isn't a hit is still better than a miss.
There is no reason for a 25 yard zero that good training can't overcome.
Great info
Excellent info Molon , thank you .:cool:
Okay, so this is my first time on the forum and my first post. From reading through this a little bit it looks like for a 50yard zero i want to be about an inch low at 30yd right? the reason I ask is cause i just got a new AR and i want to sight it in for 50Yds but my local range only has a 100yd and 30yd rifke range and they wont let you place targets at any other distances. Ive never shot the rifle let alone with my optic on it so i have no idea where its going to be hitting at any distance yet. Thanks for any help and sorry if this isnt the right places for the question.
Nevermind. As you were.
Highly recommend just going point of aim/point of impact at 100.
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