Would you go individual or trust in this situation?

Hey all, so my recent acquisition of a GHM9 is the starting point for diving into the NFA rabbit hole. For this particular project, the plan is a suppressor and most likely a Form 1 to SBR it. In the longer run, I figure that I'll pick up a 30 cal can and a 22 can for my bolt guns.

So here's the conundrum...

My wife has zero interest in doing any sort of NFA paperwork for herself to be listed as a responsible party. She just doesn't want to end up on any registry whatsoever, so realistically I am the only person who will be using these items. We already have a general family trust established and my will dictates all my possessions not already listed within that trust automatically become the property of it on death, so the inheritance issue isn't really a factor, either (yes, I know probate is still involved there...but it's open/shut).

So the question I'm facing is this...is it worth doing the trust thing if it's only ever going to be me?

Unless you want someone else to be able to use your NFA items in your absence and they want to do so as well and are willing to go through the background checks each time you add an item to the trust, there’s really no point in going the trust route.

There are two primary reasons that trusts became popular.
1) To get around a chief LEO who was refusing to sign off on a form. Surprisingly enough, Obama replaced this with a notification requirement. Therefore, this is no longer a valid reason.
2) To be able to add NFA items that others can use without requiring them to go through a background check each time an item was added. Unsurprisingly, Obama go rid of this by requiring each person on the trust to go through the NFA background check each time an item was added. Therefore, this is no longer a valid reason.

I like the trust aspect. Create a separate trust for each item with a beneficiary. Don’t add anyone else until after the NFA item has been acquired. Then they don’t have to do all the paperwork but they can legally make use of the item.

Then it makes things easier to designate who gets what (beneficiary) upon your passing as they can be set up as the beneficiary.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Trust. My wife is the same but for the sake of being able to handle items in my absence she puts up with the fingerprints, background checks, etc. It’s the lesser of two evils.

I also have a GHM9 and have been procrastinating on this and my first NFA for too long.

Maybe I’m just being weird but there’s something about going the individual route and having to engrave my full name instead of a trust name. It probably doesn’t matter to some people though.

I always suggest getting the trust, mostly because if something changes in the future your paying another $200 to put it in a trust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waylander

Maybe I’m just being weird but there’s something about going the individual route and having to engrave my full name instead of a trust name. It probably doesn’t matter to some people though.

---

I prefer factory SBR's and will even pay a little more overall for one just so my name doesn't have to be engraved on the firearm. That said, a good engraver can engrave so small and in an inconspicuous place that it's hard to see.

If you don't add anyone to the trust until after the item has been approved, you would be the only one needing to send in fingerprints. A very simple extra page added to the trust is all it takes after approval.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zombiescometh

I always suggest getting the trust, mostly because if something changes in the future your paying another $200 to put it in a trust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

This, and your wife is already tied to your assets by marriage. If there is a list, shes already on it.

Single shot trust is the way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mig1nc

Single shot trust is the way.

---

Please elaborate as to why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bret

Please elaborate as to why.

---

Probably for the reasons previously stated by lonestardiver, zombiescometh and georgelib. They are all talking about “single-shot trusts”, ie a trust with only one NFA item and one initial person (you). Once approved, additional people (family etc) can be added merely by getting their notarized signature.

https://www.silencershop.com/blog/po...gle-shot-trust

Thanks for the input, all. As far as I know, the one-shot trust isn't really an option because I'm mostly buying locally and the one-shot seems specific to Silencer Shop.

I've been going back and forth on it, and I'm inclined to agree with Waylander that I don't really want to engrave my name on the gun. The trust route does keep things simple in the future with a larger collection that the trust owns. I did verify with a lawyer that I can identify the beneficiary of a trust as another trust, which greatly simplifies the whole "what happens if I die" process.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BrigandTwoFour

Thanks for the input, all. As far as I know, the one-shot trust isn't really an option because I'm mostly buying locally and the one-shot seems specific to Silencer Shop.

I've been going back and forth on it, and I'm inclined to agree with Waylander that I don't really want to engrave my name on the gun. The trust route does keep things simple in the future with a larger collection that the trust owns. I did verify with a lawyer that I can identify the beneficiary of a trust as another trust, which greatly simplifies the whole "what happens if I die" process.

---

Single shot trust isn't just a product or brand. It is that. But it's the idea as suggested above to isolate your purchases to dedicated trusts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Keep in mind that transfers to family members are free if you die and you can use a will to dictate what happens to your NFA items.

While I was on the phone today with a representative from Capitol Armory walking through the paperwork for a suppressor, I asked her what the individual to trust ratio was based on her experience. She said that it varies. It was that about 70% were trusts, but more recently people have figured out that individual approvals are going faster, so it has flipped.

I’ve considered setting up a trust with my BIL so that we can split the costs and be able to share items. I also like the idea that if my job took me somewhere with no NFA items I could leave it with him. I also don’t want to have a separate safe for just the NFA stuff as my wife needs access to the main safe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bret

While I was on the phone today with a representative from Capitol Armory walking through the paperwork for a suppressor, I asked her what the individual to trust ratio was based on her experience. She said that it varies. It was that about 70% were trusts, but more recently people have figured out that individual approvals are going faster, so it has flipped.

---

I've been hearing that, but haven't seen any data showing the difference between individual or trust submissions. With he recent hoopla round eForms going up and down, I'm not sure what to make of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bret

While I was on the phone today with a representative from Capitol Armory walking through the paperwork for a suppressor, I asked her what the individual to trust ratio was based on her experience. She said that it varies. It was that about 70% were trusts, but more recently people have figured out that individual approvals are going faster, so it has flipped.

---

FWIW, my understanding for the reason trust approvals take longer is that people will have multiple on their trusts requiring multiple background checks. If you do a trust with just a single person, they take the same amount of time. Additional people can be added to the trust after approval with no issues, and no additional waiting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by georgeib

Additional people can be added to the trust after approval with no issues, and no additional waiting.

---

If you want to add another NFA item to the trust at a later date, would they all have to go through the background check for the new item?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bret

If you want to add another NFA item to the trust at a later date, would they all have to go through the background check for the new item?

---

No, because you have added them with an addendum page that you will remove while applying.

You can add and remove people from a trust at will. In Georgia, it isn't even necessary to get the addendum notarized. So you add a page to the back of the trust with any additional trustee or beneficiary, and remove that page(s) if you would like to remove that trustee(s).

ETA: Alternately, you can have the additional trustees and/or beneficiaries in the trust, and then use an amendment page at the back of the trust to remove them for the purpose of applying.

Keeping in mind that I believe that the NFA is BS including machine guns, the ATF is probably the last organization I'd mess with by doing something like that. They could make the case that one was intentionally adding and removing trustees to avoid background checks and they'd pretty much have everything they'd need to convince a federal jury. Look at what happened to Larry Vickers. He followed all of their regulations, but they still nailed him. That's not something that I think is worth the risk, but best of luck to anyone who does so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bret

Keeping in mind that I believe that the NFA is BS including machine guns, the ATF is probably the last organization I'd mess with by doing something like that. They could make the case that one was intentionally adding and removing trustees to avoid background checks and they'd pretty much have everything they'd need to convince a federal jury. Look at what happened to Larry Vickers. He followed all of their regulations, but they still nailed him. That's not something that I think is worth the risk, but best of luck to anyone who does so.

---

The preceding advice I wrote is from an NFA trust attorney from whom I bought my trust, and I believe may be detailed on their website. https://nfalawyers.com/

I think this is the particular part that you're referencing.
https://nfalawyers.com/new-41f-updat...wyers-clients/

Lawyers can tell you how to navigate a process, but taking their advice doesn't get you a get out of jail free card. If you follow a lawyer's advice and end up in legal trouble, will that lawyer pay all of your legal fees and tell the court that they gave you the advice that led you to be in the situation? Larry Vickers no doubt received advice from lawyers regarding how to navigate the ATF's regulations. In the end, he still got charged. Amending and shredding an amendment to a trust for the purpose of avoiding background checks for those in the trust seems like a bad idea because one of the primary purposes of 41F was to require background checks for everyone in a trust. It doesn't matter that nobody would have failed the background check anyway.
None of the machineguns that Larry Vickers got imported were used for nefarious purposes. I think someone doing this is messing with fire. The ATF has unlimited funds and has demonstrated that they don't really care about the letter of the law. So, I wouldn't do it but wish the best of luck to anyone who does.

This is one more reason I started doing single shot trusts.

None of those worries about adding items and modifying the individuals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro