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I’m sure it’s been asked a bunch but how are the newer PSA complete 300blk uppers? I’m thinking of picking one up and I’ve heard nothing but good things but want to make sure. For $250 with a BCG and CH it’s tough to beat.
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Reading extensively about PSA complete uppers I’ve noted that many owners have complained about the rail systems being loose and/or canted out of the box. Further, once the rails have been sorted out, the rails seem to loosen easily and repeatedly after very low round counts. Personally, I’d pass.
At that price point you have to wonder where the parts came from.
Our sample of one complete upper, 16"midlength in 5.56, ("classic" style) has run fine so far, and is surprisingly accurate.
Smith shields run under 250.00 there all the time, wonder where the parts come from? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by GH41
When you look at the AR and modern manufacturing, pretty much everything in the upper, minus the barrel, is a comparatively easy CNC process.
I didn't bother to look up the specifics on the upper, but I'd bet you 1) aren't getting a C-158 bolt, and 2) aren't getting a chrome-lined barrel. Probably not going to be a difference for most average shooters.
Take all that and a business model that stresses low prices and sales quantity and you can get prices like that.
What do think that ToolCraft, for example, has in a BCG? IDK. Some vendor or another always has ToolCraft C-158 BCG's for somewhere between $89 and $100, and that is with them taking their slice of profit out of the price.
Plus, the gun business is pretty flat right now, so folks are cutting deep to get sales.
Notice, at no time did I say PSA was top quality. But, IMO, PSA is acceptable quality for the AVERAGE user, and with massaging, perfectly adequate for hard use.
Here is the one I was looking at. It claims it’s a Toolcraft BCG.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...ib-bcg-ch.html
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If you want a 7.5" 300 Blackout - buy it.
Way I look at it, you buy somethin' cheap, a part ain't right, replace the part.
Like a good friend once told me: ARs are like lego sets for adults.
Very true.
The bolt that came with our upper, as well as the other PSA BCG in my SPR, is listed as a C-158.
A little over 200 rnds through that upper, 750ish through the SPR, nothin's broke yet, never yet seen either have a malfunction.
You will find more problems posted with PSA than with any other several companies put together. Parts being out of spec, and improper assembly are the usual complaints, followed by problems with customer service for defective items.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdknox
If your sole goal is to get a 300BLK upper as cheap as possible, I don't think you will find a lower price. Most people don't shoot 300BLK all that much anyway due to its pricing.
I’ll have to keep researching. My other AR’s are Daniel Defense and Midwest Industries rifles so I’m used to a certain quality level. I was mainly looking as a cheap way to get into the round to play around with it.
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Well we know they are cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdknox
It typically costs 2-3 times as much to go cheap.
You'll never get any resale value out of that and IMO $250 is better spent on a quality upper.
But if you just like fingerbang at the range a couple 3 times a year, it likely won't matter at all.
So I bought one for myself at the end of last year. When I inspected it, I didn't find the issues that many others have found. The rail was on straight, the parts were torqued within specs and it passed all safety and function checks. Mine was a complete build kit with this upper: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...th-bcg-ch.html
What I didn't like was the forend (it's heavy and overly bulky where the QD sling points are, plus I had to mill out the bottom rear slot to accept a Magpul handstop kit) and the barrel, which is completely unprofiled from the gas block back. It's a complete pig for being so short.
In the interim I've been catching parts on sale here and there to build a better replacement. It will have a Faxon light profile 7.5" barrel with 5R rifling, an Odin Works stainless adjustable gas block, a "quiet comp", a lighter, slimmer M-Lok forend, upper receiver with no forward assist, Brownell's lightweight M16 BCG and an ambi CH.
It will be interesting to see how much lighter it is than the pig, considering I'm going to have just $85 more in it than the PSA complete upper. I was just going to replace the PSA barrel and handguard, but when I ran the numbers it was going to cost me less to build a complete new upper and sell the PSA. I don't think you can buy a cheaper .300BLK upper than PSA, but will you be satisfied with it as is? If so, go for it, but if you're at all picky about stuff like I mentioned, go ahead and spend a bit more the first time around.
Glocktogo.....how’s the accuracy of the factory? I typically care about stuff which is why my others aren’t PSA rifles. This will mainly be a plinker and if I really hate it, I have a buddy who’s a PSA fanboy!
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Amazing price tag. I'm sure there is good value there. You might get a good one or you might get a lemon. My experience is hit or miss. I have the tools and skills to deal with smaller issues, but what I don't have is the time and patience to deal with their CS, as that is also hit or miss. Some issues just are not worth the hassle. In summery, you roll the dice with low price.
Toolcraft BCG's are good (knowing that they only manufacture the carrier and spec/outsource the other components). Some of the details of how the bolts are made and tested (like HPT and/or MPI) are not detailed in the description. More times than not, these details were cut out of the process to keep the price very low and it probably reflects what PSA spec'd in their order. After many dogmatic years, I actually now prefer 9310 bolts. Neither choice is wrong, however.
I don't like NiB (Nickel Boron) coating on BCG's. I actually prefer cheap old black phosphate. It's less money and IDGAF if it's not white glove clean. I'd rather that money went to, at the very least, a MPI process on the bolt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdknox
Yeah it does seem roll of the dice. I have a friend with all the tools and knowledge to potentially fix issues or ill use their CS. I could certainly go a Midwest Industries complete upper but that is 3x the price just to try the caliber, lol.
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Well, if you're a glass-is-half-full type of person, go for it. It might be great for you and your purpose. If you're even slightly suspicious of amazing prices (knowing that nothing is free), go with a brand with a track record of providing high quality products and stellar CS, if something does go wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdknox
Honestly I haven't shot it yet. Even if it's sub-MOA, I know I won't be satisfied with the weight and balance, especially once I have a can for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdknox
I'm on the fence whether to shoot them side by side before I put the PSA up for sale. I'd love to know if there's an accuracy difference, but then it's no longer "like new" when I sell it. :confused:
See, this is what happens on the internet - More times than not, these details were cut out of the process to keep the price very low and it probably reflects what PSA spec'd - somebody posts conjecture in a manner that seems factual, and the next person then posts it as fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by tehpwnag3
Nearly as bad is commenting about the quality of an upper that you bought and never shot. Fvck me running, am I on ARFCOM?
Here is the deal, Toolcraft may in fact play juggle the bolts in their BCG's. Seems to me it would be a hassle keeping the various bolts separate, I can imagine breaking in the new guy:
"Okay in this bin we have the 9310 bolts that have been individually MPI and HPT tested." "Now in this bin we have the 9310 bolts that have been batch tested for MPI and HPT." "Over here we have the C-158 bolts that have been individually MPI and HPT tested." "Next bin over are the C-158 bolts that have been batch tested MPI and HPT."
New guy: "Why not just decide what you want the bolt manufacturer to do and buy bolts to the spec in C-158 and 9310? Then you'd only have two bins. I learned in industrial management that..."
Old hand: "Save that book stuff, kid, this is the real world."
Could be, IDK. What I do know is that, regardless, if the bolt breaks Toolcraft will replace it. I honestly don't believe they would have that guarantee without a baseline of some sort.
First, I didn't comment on something I don't have experience with. You must have me confused with someone else.
Second, Toolcraft buys bolts. They do not make them. If you have proof that everything they sell is held to the same quality standard (OEM, distributor, and retail), please provide it and I will gladly tip my hat to you. As a cautionary tale, if the product doesn't list it, don't expect it. That's what I was trying to say. Everyone knows that non-HPT and non-MPI bolts are cheaper to produce.
From the PSA product page: "Bolt Carrier Group: ToolCraft nickel boron BCG has a bolt made of mil-spec shot-peened Carpenter 158 steel. Gas key is secured with grade 8 fasteners and staked per mil-spec."
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Inf
I'll follow up with Toolcraft tomorrow, they might tell me.Quote:
Originally Posted by tehpwnag3
I tend to agree with this in most cases: As a cautionary tale, if the product doesn't list it, don't expect it.
ETA: I know that post was kind of dickie. It just gets me that folks will bag on manufacturers as not being up to snuff, when apparently they don't shoot the stuff. Not directed at you, rather at the guy(s) who let it slip on occassion "I haven't been able to get to the range for several years" or "I couldn't shoot it past 25 because that is all my range allows."
I said what I have to say about PSA in an earlier post: Notice, at no time did I say PSA was top quality. But, IMO, PSA is acceptable quality for the AVERAGE user, and with massaging, perfectly adequate for hard use.
Thanks everyone for all the replies...I think I’ll try and Save my money for a bit
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I can't speak to the 300blk but my wife shoots a $219 PSA 5.56 pencil upper + PSA nickel boron BCG. She's now starting on a third case of M193. Recreational use. Flawless operation.
At 800 rounds my PSA M4 is doing fine.
26 INF...I appreciate the discourse, and I don't mind being corrected. All good brother.
The only "proof" I have is four BCG's, all Toolcraft, with an interesting mix of bolts. One of them is from a PSA upper purchase, and this is where things get interesting. But first, the specs:
- 2 BCG's are phosphate coated with C-158 HPT/MPI bolts (bolts are marked as such). These are OEM for a well-known brand. One has the cage code "1B1B6" on the left side, the other has "Made In USA". Both were authenticated by TC, even though they were never questionable for me.
- 1 BCG is Toolcraft-branded retail purchase with a Nitride finish and a 9310 MPI bolt. The bolt is marked "MPI". The carrier has no markings but Toolcraft authenticated it for me.
- 1 BCG came with a PSA 5.56 upper purchase. The ad listed it as a C-158 shot peened MPI bolt, etc. etc.. It has no markings at all, so I called PSA and they told me it was a Toolcraft BCG. I then contacted Toolcraft and sent them some pictures (they asked for them) and they confirmed that it was their carrier but that they do not manufacture bolts, they outsource them. When I asked for details, they would not tell me where my bolt was sourced from or what testing standards it might or might not of had other than alluding that the markings (or lack thereof) were indicative. Damn, I said. When I called PSA back about this, they gave me the run around. So, buyer beware.
When Toolcraft gets back to you, I'd like to know what they tell you. FWIW, I do trust that Toolcraft will take care of me if anything goes sideways. When I called them about my nitride BCG being unmarked, I was very reassured by TC that they will back their product 100% and that they can tell if it's their product or not (although she could not tell me exactly what marks or contours signify a TC product). The CS person was very helpful and friendly (even though she purposely couldn't answer all of my questions).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Inf
On recent and current production BCG's the bolts are marked MPI and HPT if HPT. All bolts are MPI'ed. Not all are HPT'ed. MPI and HPT (if HPT'ed) are done by the bolt manufacturer.Quote:
Originally Posted by tehpwnag3
From the convo, Toolcraft is with KAC, as far as HPT is concerned. To paraphrase: 'If you absolutely build more BCG's than anyone on the planet, then you can dictate that your vendors provide you with the best quality product.' I got the distinct impression that because of this, Toolcraft would prefer batch testing over piece testing, but some customers demand piece testing.
I was also told that they cannot speak with complete certainty that ALL bolts are marked because they cannot know how quickly their customers go through inventory and what inventory control processes they use - LIFO, FIFO or JIT.
Nutshell - current bolts are marked MPI and, if tested, HPT. In the near future they will also be marked as to the material used.
There are 5 ways that Toolcraft can identify whether the components of a BCG originated with them. Those 5 ways are like the recipes for Cooca Cola or KFC, not for public dissemination.
Thanks for the follow-up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Inf
Ordered and received the PSA 7.5" 300 Blackout upper a couple of weeks ago. It was on sale for $229.99 shipped, and came with a nickle boron BCG and a charging handle. I put it on my Ruger AR556 Pistol lower and fired 100 rounds through it at the range. No problems at all using supersonic ammo, not a bobble.
Do us a favor and keep track of rounds fired and any problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHMann
I just had a complete PSA upper in my class a few weeks back. This was supposed to be part of their "premium line" with a CHF barrel. The rail appeared to be low grade Chinesium. The barrel/gas block weren't dimpled at all. The extractor spring was also very weak and missing the extractor spring insert.
Picked up a psa 300 bo upper for 260 shipped.
For pig hunting and the range. Too lazy to reload and 7.62x39 soft points and hollow points are cheap.
I’ve put 9 rounds thru the upper and put it in the safe. Waiting for wolf to make steel cased sp/hp. Until then, the 7.62x39 is what goes to the field and the range