1st rounds fliers...what causes them?

I've put together a new build meant for accuracy, and have noticed a trend for the 1st round to shoot outside the rest of the group, usually high and left, or high or left. Basically, notably outside the rest of the group in the 9:00-12:00 direction. The remainder of the group is usually very tight.

Build:
Sionics 18" barrel
Geissele Mk8 Rail (used certified torque wrench and followed instructions)
Vltor MUR
Sionics parkerized BCG/CH
BRT Covert Comp(barely above hand tight)
Sionics assembled Lower
Magpul UBR Gen2
Sprinco Green Spring A5H3 buffer
Geissele SSA-E trigger
Vortex HS-T 6-24

100 yards:
Attachment 52205
Attachment 52206

200 yards after firing 5 rounds on steel, then shooting paper:
Attachment 52207
Attachment 52208
Attachment 52209

My buddy built an identical rifle, minus the handguard and scope mount, and is seeing similar results. I asked him to fire the first round of his magazine into the berm before firing his five round groups and his group size dropped substantially.

It is due to a cold shooter.

4th 200 yard picture:
Attachment 52210

I'm hoping there is a solution to this, and this seems like the best place to ask. Thanks for any help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KUSA

It is due to a cold shooter.

---

That would be totally awesome. I have no problem with it being me.

The hand cycled rd. goes into battery at a different velocity than the self cycled rds. is my guess
Common occurrence with an auto loader handgun.

I’ll add I’ve seen this tendency lessen or disappear once lapped/broken in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taekwondopreacher

That would be totally awesome. I have no problem with it being me.

---

It happens to me all the time also. Lowlight over Snipershide swears that there is no such thing as the cold bore causing a flyer but rather that it is the cold shooter.

This “cold bore shot flyer” phenomenon is mostly attributed to a non fouled bore.
Most shooters log shots, they know how the flyer will deviate as compared to subsequent shots.

How do you clean your barrel?

To get consistent first shots, it is better to avoid aggressive solvents and use a CLP-type cleaner to clean out gunk and residue from the barrel, but leaving the copper behind.

If you remove the copper, your shots will be inconsistent until a layer of copper has been deposited in the barrel again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joffe

How do you clean your barrel?

To get consistent first shots, it is better to avoid aggressive solvents and use a CLP-type cleaner to clean out gunk and residue from the barrel, but leaving the copper behind.

If you remove the copper, your shots will be inconsistent until a layer of copper has been deposited in the barrel again.

---

It's a new barrel that now has 235 rounds. I clean at about 400 rounds and remove the fouling as well with a quality bore cleaner. I know not to expect the best accuracy until the barrel fouls after a mag or two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gaijin

The hand cycled rd. goes into battery at a different velocity than the self cycled rds. is my guess
Common occurrence with an auto loader handgun.

I’ll add I’ve seen this tendency lessen or disappear once lapped/broken in.

---

My other SPR has 1477 rounds. I put about half of those through it last year, and don't remember the first shot phenomenon happening then. I can't tell you if it happened when it first started shooting that rifle because I was shooting a GI trigger and my groups weren't as good.

All of my AR’s equipped with magnified optics also have two-stage triggers and all will throw the first round high if a chamber using the charging handle. If I load by releasing the BCG from lock-back, the first round is not thrown and the groups are even.

I believe that releasing the bolt more closely mimics the cycling of the action after a fired round.

^^Agree with this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KUSA

It happens to me all the time also. Lowlight over Snipershide swears that there is no such thing as the cold bore causing a flyer but rather that it is the cold shooter.

---

Agree with the load function. In Highpower, the rounds from a mag will shoot differently than those singly loaded of a mag with a sled follower. .

The 'Cold shooter' is easily tested if you have two guns (hopefully the same) and have the shooter shoot that first and then go straight to the other cool gun. You could even pick and replace the gun for each shot to make it perfectly the same.

Sound like you are not dealing with a clean and cold bore, but rather a dirty and 'cool' bore shot. The gun might not be 'hot' but is has been shot that day and not cleaned?

I'd try the bolt release load and see what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FromMyColdDeadHand

Agree with the load function. In Highpower, the rounds from a mag will shoot differently than those singly loaded of a mag with a sled follower. .

The 'Cold shooter' is easily tested if you have two guns (hopefully the same) and have the shooter shoot that first and then go straight to the other cool gun. You could even pick and replace the gun for each shot to make it perfectly the same.

Sound like you are not dealing with a clean and cold bore, but rather a dirty and 'cool' bore shot. The gun might not be 'hot' but is has been shot that day and not cleaned?

I'd try the bolt release load and see what happens.

---

Not dealing with a clean bore. Once I break a rifle in, I typically only clean when the groups starting noticeably exceeding the baseline of the given rifle. For example, if the rifle averages 1 MOA at 100 yards, I'll shoot groups again when I start missing easy 1.5 MOA targets.

I've been releasing from bolt release since I built the rifle. I'm going to re-evaluate at 500 rounds and see if the tendency to have a flyer is diminished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gunnerblue

All of my AR’s equipped with magnified optics also have two-stage triggers and all will throw the first round high if a chamber using the charging handle. If I load by releasing the BCG from lock-back, the first round is not thrown and the groups are even.

I believe that releasing the bolt more closely mimics the cycling of the action after a fired round.

---

Never considered this a possibility. I'll have to try it next time I'm at the range.

Cold bore like stated is a cold shooter.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gunnerblue

All of my AR’s equipped with magnified optics also have two-stage triggers and all will throw the first round high if a chamber using the charging handle. If I load by releasing the BCG from lock-back, the first round is not thrown and the groups are even.

I believe that releasing the bolt more closely mimics the cycling of the action after a fired round.

---

I don't buy cold shooter. I do buy gaijin's , load via dropping the bolt vs easing it down on first round. Also, fouling can play a role, depending on what you want to do, we commonly fire 2 to 3 rounds on steel before we do groups on 223.

We never do this on 308 or 300WM. Mark, back in the day, cleaned his 308 spotless every week and the first round would hit the BULLSEYE, then the rest of rounds would cluster around it. No cold bore shooter. It happened 50 times in the first years of our long range learning.

Seems to be a small bore thang, maybe ? Or AR thang.

PB

As my buddy continues to shoot his identically built rifle, he is seeing smaller groups. He is now of the mindset that's it's a cold shooter issue. We leapfrog on who is better at precision shooting, so I'm not unconvinced he is correct. I have been saving components to do another batch of higher end handloaded ammo, so I'll have to revisit this issue later. I tend to cycle between shooting issued equipment and better, personally owned gear.

I tend to think it's more of a shooter issue than weapon system issue. If I bring several guns to the range and shoot a string with one gun then switch to a cold rifle my first shot flyers aren't nearly as pronounced I don't doubt for a second there are guns out there that do have POI shifting after the barrel warms from rounds fired but for me I thinks it's more a mental road block.

My 308 AR does this first round “flier” unless i drop the bolt from lock. If I cycle the CH to charge, I undoubtedly get fliers. I partially think my barrel has a flaw as I have a hard time keeping consistent groups with or without it being copper fouled. Looking to make another upper/barrel combo in 6.5CM for S&Gs.

This phenomenon does not happen with my 5.56 SPR; 18” Rainier Ultra Match SPR profile, KAC lower, Colt upper, KAC FF (MK12) with AE break and collar.

Load 6 and shoot the first round into the berm and a 5 round group. If you still have a flyer it's the shooter, if not it's probably a placebo effect and was always the shooter.

Built my father (80+) an AR and he was convinced of his first round flyers. I asked him during one range outing if I could fire the first round, he said yes, but wasn't paying attention that I never fired a shot, just loading seating the mag and then getting up after others fired their guns. No flyer on that group from him. When I told him of my deception, he declared I had loaded the 1st round (although he did but forgot) and changed the gun. Until he started adding junk for more and more accuracy (why I'll never know) he was consistently 1 MOA @ 1-300 yards benched on bags with irons (fundamentals). After adding scope 1-4 Leupold, bipod, rear bag, cheek rest, flashlight and mount (why?), brass catcher he never shot better than 2-3 MOA as it all got in the way and hindered the fundamentals.

I always chamber using the bolt release if semi and mostly see the shift if:

- I have fully cleaned and oiled the bore
- First round on a (some makes worse than others) suppressor
- Rifle is a rimfire, and shifting ammo makes (not sure why, but rimfires seem to be bad about this)

FWIW, I took an AMU course a few years back and they had done very comprehensive testing on this (had a fancy powerpoint and all). What was funny to me was their data showed a cold bore shift (varied by barrel/ammo/caliber/etc...) but many of their instructors still felt it was more likely to be shooter induced. So.... Who knows.

Cold shooter vs cold bore can easily be tested on a lead sled.

Mount a gun on a lead sled, of you still get that flyer is probably not the shooter, of you don’t then it’s probably the shooter.

Although I’d be more interested in barrel length vs the “flyers” distance from POA. (If subscribered to the cold bore line of thinking).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

It's largely caused by the imbalance of GMO and Gluten in the shooter's diet. That and Global warming will easily explain the flyers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by markm

It's largely caused by the imbalance of GMO and Gluten in the shooter's diet. That and Global warming will easily explain the flyers.

---

It's Russian meddling

I have NOTORIOUS 4th and 5th round flyers. Immediately after I stack three shots in one hole. CHOKE CHOKE and choke. I’ll stop Breathing then yank the fk out of the trigger and open that baby up
To 1.5 MOA.

CLASSIC PB Flyers !

Last week Mark shot a 3 shot 300WM group that barely opened up the first hole, I said you want to ? “ fk that I’m not ....”. LOL

It’s an epedemic at our hide at times

I recently went down the rabbit hole chasing my first round flier. I observed the 1st Rd from every mag hitting a different spot than the rest of the group. Each type of ammo had a different flyer location, but for a type of ammo the flyer shift was consistent. On one test I fired 5 2 round strings, each string being a mag loaded with 2 RDS. The test produced 2 distinct 5 Rd groups on the target.

I tore down the rifle to true the receiver, bed the barrel, and "float" the gas tube. Afterward it didn't disappear... Despite quite a few factory loads seeing dramatic improvements in group size.

After a lot of experimentation I found the culprit: my 1st Gen 20rd pmags(the straight ones). They had been my go-to bench mags for a while. When I tried a new 30 rounder in my range bag the first round flier went away. Bought some newer 20rd curved PMAGS and no issue either.

So, food for thought: if you see first round fliers when using the bolt release or charging handle, consider trying a different mag.

I am just shocked at the number of credible shooters that experience this. Me or Mark with all our guns and different ammo have never seen it with any consistency. Just wow

And I’m not doubting anyone. Just wow

My experience has not been with 1st, but LAST rd. fliers, in an autoloader/AR.
Fairly regularly when shooting to bolt lock I’ll have a rd. substantially out of the group.
I read a Seekins article that tried to explain this as a barrel harmonics issue-that barrel doesn’t vibrate/flex the same when bolt doesn’t go forward.

As far as 1st rd. fliers; as long as I charge the gun by dropping bolt with bolt release- I’ve not experienced this issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gaijin

My experience has not been with 1st, but LAST rd. fliers, in an autoloader/AR.
Fairly regularly when shooting to bolt lock I’ll have a rd. substantially out of the group.
I read a Seekins article that tried to explain this as a barrel harmonics issue-that barrel doesn’t vibrate/flex the same when bolt doesn’t go forward.

As far as 1st rd. fliers; as long as I charge the gun by dropping bolt with bolt release- I’ve not experienced this issue.

---

Yeah, what’s up with the LAST round fliers? I get those too and it doesn’t make sense as the bullet has left the barrel long before the bolt locks back.

Barrel makers and bench shooters say that is false. Barrells shoot better, fouling especially copper removed. Clean barrels shoot better at the highest levels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gunnerblue

All of my AR’s equipped with magnified optics also have two-stage triggers and all will throw the first round high if a chamber using the charging handle. If I load by releasing the BCG from lock-back, the first round is not thrown and the groups are even.

I believe that releasing the bolt more closely mimics the cycling of the action after a fired round.

---

When I got into AR's, my buddy who was most knowledgeable always said for best groups, release first round from lock back, don't charge via charging handle. Always followed this advice really only for scope and sight zeros, and haven't seen the first round flier for those cases. Never really thought about it until this thread popped up.

If your first round flyer off-set is consistent, just remember it and compensate with your sight alignment, then aim dead center for subsequent rounds...same principle as with a sound suppressor off-set...remember you are in control, not the rifle...

I had a couple first-round-flyers this morning, both with 69gr FGMM:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ot-Upper/page2


I had been shooting 5-shot groups all morning (seven or eight of them, for 35-40rnds), so the gun wasn't cold or clean.

(I always put five in a mag, put the mag in the gun with the bolt already locked back, and chamber the first round by pressing the bolt catch (not using the charging handle.)

I shot a group of Norma inbetween and afterwards, and both of those grouped nicely, so was not me, not the gun, not global warming, not the Illuminati, not the rotation of the earth, not what I had for breakfast (oatmeal, again), etc. etc. etc.

I figured there might be something wrong/whacky with the FGMM...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littlejerry

I recently went down the rabbit hole chasing my first round flier...

After a lot of experimentation I found the culprit: my 1st Gen 20rd pmags(the straight ones). They had been my go-to bench mags for a while. When I tried a new 30 rounder in my range bag the first round flier went away. Bought some newer 20rd curved PMAGS and no issue either.

So, food for thought: if you see first round fliers when using the bolt release or charging handle, consider trying a different mag.

---

I'm trying hard NOT to go down the rabbithole... Little Jerry may have saved me.

I didn't pay attention to what mag I was using with the FGMM (they're numbered, but I don't keep track unless there's a malfunction), but there IS a good chance I used the same mag for both strings of FGMM.

Next time I'll pay more attention!

Glad I saved you time, and ammo.

Pretty frustrating to chase an issue and look at the amount of ammo you burned after the fact.

Also funny to think about pinching pennies on a new match barrel when you might have to burn up $100 worth of match ammo to find a load your rifle likes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littlejerry

Also funny to think about pinching pennies on a new match barrel when you might have to burn up $100 worth of match ammo to find a load your rifle likes.

---

If this is dig at my choice of WOA over BRT in that other thread... I don't doubt that BRT (or Compass Lake or whatever) is worth the extra money, I just couldn't see that I would be able to take advantage of it.

As is, that WOA upper shoots three of the four kinds of factory "match" ammo that I have (FGMM, TAP, and Norma) realllly well (consistently sub-moa, even with those first-round-flyers). It doesn't like the old Black Hills load (75g, w/ moly) at all, but no other gun does, either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bimmer

If this is dig at my choice of WOA over BRT in that other thread... I don't doubt that BRT (or Compass Lake or whatever) is worth the extra money, I just couldn't see that I would be able to take advantage of it.

As is, that WOA upper shoots three of the four kinds of factory "match" ammo that I have (FGMM, TAP, and Norma) realllly well (consistently sub-moa, even with those first-round-flyers). It doesn't like the old Black Hills load (75g, w/ moly) at all, but no other gun does, either.

---

Not at all a dig at you. WOA makes good barrels, and is well known in the service rifle world as a a go-to for accuracy. BRT conversely has no reputation in competition. Not saying they are a bad choice... Just that it would take a lot of convincing for me to choose one of their barrels for LR precision over a known quantity. I say this as someone who loves their 12.5 BRT barrel.

Just a general comment for myself and all the be other threads you see on forums. After personally burning so much ammo on a mediocre barrel trying to find something that'll group, I'd much rather just plunk down the money for a Craddock, Shilen, CLE, WOA, etc. The time and ammo cost makes it worthwhile IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littlejerry

Not at all a dig at you. WOA makes good barrels, and is well known in the service rifle world as a a go-to for accuracy...

Just a general comment for myself and all the be other threads you see on forums. After personally burning so much ammo on a mediocre barrel trying to find something that'll group, I'd much rather just plunk down the money for a Craddock, Shilen, CLE, WOA, etc. The time and ammo cost makes it worthwhile IMO.

---

All clear... This was my thinking, too.

I was looking at Aero and some other off-brands, but when WOA was available for less than $700, it didn't make sense to mess with anything else.