I'd like to know your opinions on when a person,for general shooting,hunting,defense and possibly offense,choose a .308 over 5.56?Also when does 6.8SPC and 300BLK enter into the mix,if they do at all?Thanks.
Printable View
I'd like to know your opinions on when a person,for general shooting,hunting,defense and possibly offense,choose a .308 over 5.56?Also when does 6.8SPC and 300BLK enter into the mix,if they do at all?Thanks.
300 BLK - Subsonic suppressed
308 - big game Hunting
556 - everything else
I am a big fan of 308, but appreciate the handiness of a well executed 5.56.
5.56- 11.5-12.5; 200 & in, optimized for close work.
300- 9.5; suppressed badassery
308- 14.5-16, General Purpose
5.56mm carbine - 300 meters to contact. Good selection of defensive loads.
5.56mm rifle - 500 meters with a decent selection of loads. 600 meters for punching paper with match ammunition.
.308 - out to 500 meters with ball ammunition. 1000 yards with match ammunition.
I stopped hunting years ago, so I can't comment on the effectiveness of using either caliber on game animals.
I'm a 7.62/.308 fan boy who has recently started to see a lot of advantages when using quality 5.56 rounds. I still would prefer 7.62 NATO over 5.56 if we're talking ball rounds, but that's just me.
5.56--Patrol/CQB work. Light ammo, able to carry alot of it. 0-300m primary effective range (yes, it can be used far further, but effectiveness is very dependent on round type, barrel length, etc)
7.62/.308--Patrol/DMR/hunting/heavy support Heavier ammo/mags with limited capacity lowers how much you'll be able to carry. 0-600m primary effective range, at least with decent glass. Good when used in a supporting role for 5.56 for long range, or a larger, more powerful round for better performance on a hard target.
.300BLK/6.8SPC/6.5Grendel--I'm slowly starting to see the advantages of .300BLK, at least in a companion role to 7.62/.308 for CQB. 6.8 and 6.5, in my opinion, are nearly dead rounds. They tried to do too much, and more effective 5.56 rounds, or quality .308 rounds made this "compromise" round unnecessary
Sorry to take this slightly off the original topic, but I was under the impression that .300BLK offers better terminal ballistics when compared to a comparable length 5.56 SBR (e.g. 10.5"). Am I off base, or that an oversimplification? I'm considering an LMT MRP as my first SBR and though the idea of having 10.5" barrels in both 5.56 and .300BLK sounded appealing.
While I certainly appreciate the characteristics of 7.62, I guess I'm just not ready to commit to a whole new platform, magazines, etc.
Dave
Interesting that you choose 308 for GP. Why is that? I understand the caliber does everything except recoil and weight better than 5.56 but given the tendency for most 308s to be setup for long range precision I've never been able to get a good feel for what a 308 GP carbine should look like or be capable of.
Because a contemporary lightweight 7.62 (SCAR-H, M110K1, M110K2 types) can be shot as fast, and are as maneuverable as heavier 5.56.
I pretty frequently win 2-gun competitions while shooting a 7.62 with 20 round mags (recently 25s) against 5.56 competition rigs. I most definately spent a lot of cake to get that kind of performance though.
308 is just easier to get to high terminal performance, and if I can get it in a format that I can shoot fast and with precision, well, that's "the one".
Perhaps for an experienced combat arms infantryman or cavalryman. For someone of the other arms (MPs, Engineers, perhaps artillerymen) the individual proficiency and competency of first-line NCOs (let alone the actual trigger-pullers) and sustainment and development opportunities may mean a 5.56 rifle or carbine might be a better option.
Although many troops are "Gun guys," not all are, and the opportunities for on-duty time development are fairly slim.
Not everyone is assigned to a Ranger company or Special Forces unit.
I'm not sure saying 300 BLK doesn't perform optimally with bullets not designed for it should be considered an issue.
For defense inside of 100 yards 300 BLK with the 110gr Barnes black tip is going to be hard to beat, even out of a very SBR. Make that 200 yards for a 16". With these combinations, the bullet is traveling fast enough for a rifle wound profile and you get reliable expansion and s barrier blind full copper bullet. I'd call this combo for this application cake and eating it too.
After that it gets a bit more gray as the 300 BLK slows down and drops faster. That said, the Barnes black tip reliably expands to 1300 FPS which ends up around 400 yards out of a 16".
And as for availability, the Barnes black tip has been pretty much the only premium ammo that was available through the BLK ammo shortage.
-john
I prefer 5.56 as my general purpose carbine. Low reoil, lots of ammo and pretty flat shooting out to 400 yards or so. The 308 I use as a support and precision round. My only 308s have always been precision bolt guns. Though there is a very good argument on using the 308 as a general purpose gun as well. To me the 300 BLK has finally legitimized the PDW concept (excluding the KAC thats not available). Up until now the PDWs have all been lacking in the terminal performance department especially at range. An eight inch 300 BLK has great close end terminal performance but still has some legs under it if the gunfight moves out to a couple hundred yards.
My personal setups (If I could afford all of them)
300 BLK. 8 inch barrel topped with a good red dot 0-250 yards
5.56. 11.5-16 inch barrel topped with a good red dot or low powered optic 0-400 yards
308. 16-24 inch barrel topped with a good low or high powered optic depending on the mission/terrain. 0-1000 yards
I'm confused - I was only comparing .300BLK to 5.56, not .308 (which I acknowledge is a little off the original topic). I was asking because I see a lot of references to .300BLK being ideal for suppressed sub-10.5" SBRs, but it's my understanding that it still offers ballistic benefits over 5.56 in SBRs even if you're not suppressing it. A lot of people feel that you start to run into reliability and terminal performance issues with 5.56 SBRs under 11.5", so I was just curious why people don't seem to recommend .300BLK even in an unsuppressed SBR:
Is it just because there's no real benefit to a 10.5" .300BLK when you can go shorter and still have good performance?
Dave
The reason NV brought up .308 is a number of 300 BLK ammunition is made with bullets designed for .308. And, as he says, those combos aren't typically optimal for performance out of 300 BLK. On the other hand it opens the door for less expensive practice ammunition.
Yah, you can go shorter. Should still get good performance from the 8.2" offerings.
-john
Gotcha.
-john
Thank you all for your posts.
C-grunt,sir,I'd like hear your thougts please,on better offerings than the .308?
Failure2Stop,sir,on the post that your beating guys with 5.56 in two gun matches,do you think your a better shot than them or do you think it's the .308 platform your using?
Apologies, didn't mean my comment to read as a humblebrag.
I'm a good Indian with a good bow and a quiver of good arrows.
My point was not so much about the gun being better than anything else, rather that the performance difference as far as maneuverability is concerned is less than many believe.
Personally broke it down for my own rifles/uses as:
0-200 yards - 5.56/.223 general purpose
0-400 yards - 6.8 SPC hunting, general purpose
100-600 yards - .308/7.62 longer range shooting, hunting
I have a great fondness for all three calibers (still new to the 6.8 as well), and am in no way trying to imply that these are their only ranges and/or capabilities, just my own personal views and setups for them and their uses for me alone.
I've gone back and forth on the .308AR thing in a BIG way over the years, having owned and shot everything from a 22" LR308 with bull barrel to a 16" KAC EMC and even a 14.5" AR10C and pretty much everything in between. Overall weight, lack of commonality among manufacturers, and the varied "tuning" from different manufacturers (e.g. EMC only for current milspec M80 or match grade stuff, AR10A4C super overgassed, etc) pushed me off that train. I'm also glad I'm not beta-testing stuff like the Aero Precision 308AR lowers that don't play well with existing mag releases. I'm currently in a "wait and see" mode as the new DPMS G2, MP10, etc, find their way in the marketplace.
These days, I basically use 5.56 for pretty much everything 0-300 yards, 6.5 Grendel for 0-600 yards, and 6.5 Creedmoor in a 22" bolt gun for long range stuff. If hunting it would be a toss-up between 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Creedmoor, depending on the game and field conditions. But my 5.56 guns are the 90% solution for sure.
ETA: as markm points out, ammo is a big factor for sure when shooting 5.56.
Those are prototype keymod panels, pocketed for grip-tape.
I am 99% happy with them.
The only thing I would change if possible would be to make them more readily adaptable for different lengths, but since the outside border is raised to prevent them from drifting/slipping they don't take to chopping well.
this is my toy
Attachment 28307Attachment 28307Attachment 28307
I have another 5.56 that is my SHTF gun but really is is just another fun gun
My hunting guns are all bolt action. For serious work it is the only way to go.
The .308 LMT MWS was about the best AR 308 ever... with the only downside being weight. We ran Pappabears without a complaint for quite a while.
But really... It didn't do anything for us that a 5.56 wouldn't. (now if we were shooting at live threats out at long ranges... yeah... I'd want that extra thump... but for regular target shooting... not needed)
The 5.56 is often sold short by shooters I think... When weather permits, I want to do some frag tests at 500 and 1000 yards with 77 gr OTMs.
I completely agree with you, markm and others that using heavier/better bullets than 62gr ball can and does greatly increase the performance and range (especially in conjunction with a longer barrel) of the 5.56/.223.
For me personally though, once I started looking at building an AR for that end with that ammo use in mind (longer range shooting and hunting), I instead switched to 6.8 SPC for the same reason for better performance for the same price (build and ammo wise).
I also must agree that I am a bit put off by the selection of .308 ARs for the same reasons you are and that I too am keeping an eye on DPMS' s GII. My go to .308/7.62 rifle is a 20" heavy barrel bolt action currently.
Again, I'm not trying to knock any of these calibers, these are just my own personal reasonings.
I came to the same conclusion actually... I haven't used my MWS in maybe half a year, if not more.
The MWS also chews and dents brass like crazy. It's a very reliable and accurate, but heavy, AR308. But I just don't need it when 5.56 does everything I want... namely, kill paper and home defense within 100m.