The civilian PDW, my Sig MPX Copperhead.

A while back I saw some videos on Youtube and read some discussions about the civilian PDW. This theory differs from the military PDW as I dont need it to necessarily penetrate body armor and it needs to be more concealable that a military PDW such as a P90. The main theory being that you could have this gun stowed in a laptop bag or other small bag and carry it around with you on your day to day life.

I began looking around and found the K configurations of the PCCs to be a bit to big. Most of the pistol chassis systems seem to be kind of junk, except for the Flux Raider which is just always out of stock. The B&T TP9 fits the bill very well but everything Ive read/watched about it says it's not great and it's 2000 bucks. The Army's Sub Compact Weapons trial brought about the B&T APC9 in mini configuration and the Sig MPX Copperhead. I have friends with both and they both work awesome, except again the Sig is 2k dollars and the APC is 2500 dollars. I had decided I was going to build up a MPA Defender Mac11 clone. From what I had put together the gun with a side charger, picatinny top, Glock mag grip, folding brace system, and flash hider, the total cost would be around 1100 bucks.

I was getting ready to buy all the parts when I saw PSA had a Daily Deal sale on the Sig MPX Copperhead for 1300 bucks. It's more than I was looking to spend on this project, but overall I think it's a better overall weapon platform than the Mac11 clone. I picked it up this weekend along with an A3 Tactical folding brace. I have two 35 round mags on the way to go with the stubby 20 rounder the gun comes with. I scavenged some MBUS irons and a Holosun from other projects.

Im not sure how I want to set up the sling yet. There is a QD socket on the back of the gun under the pic rail. That or buy a pic rail QD and run the back of the sling on the folding brace. I planning on finding some more compact iron and then run a small light off the side up front. Or maybe even a pistol light at 12 o'clock. Eventually I'll upgrade the red dot.

Overall Im quite happy with the results so far. I havent shot it yet but the ones I have shot are accurate enough to hit sihlouettes out to 150 yards no problem. Also it's not that much bigger than my Glock 17 while giving me far more capability at range.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9b3c3884_o.jpg20240226_131050 by chase, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...eabc4617_o.jpg20240226_131117 by chase, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...836367d2_o.jpg20240226_131100 by chase, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e58f2d19_o.jpg20240226_131151 by chase, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ed04be9d_o.jpg20240226_131139 by chase, on Flickr

Sweet set up. It would even be more compact with a B&T style telescopic stock.

As an aside, everyone thinks you need .300 blackout to survive these days. However, I would argue that most home defense situations could be dealt with using a 9 mm SBR or PCC. You aren’t selling yourself short with your set up at all, and it’s better than a handgun.

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Originally Posted by MadAngler1

Sweet set up. It would even be more compact with a B&T style telescopic stock.

As an aside, everyone thinks you need .300 blackout to survive these days. However, I would argue that most home defense situations could be dealt with using a 9 mm SBR or PCC. You aren’t selling yourself short with your set up at all, and it’s better than a handgun.

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I've watched enough footage of people being shot a dozen times with pistols and still keep coming, to think that a 9mm isn't selling myself short. Not to mention the relative proliferation of cheap body armor. Rifles can do work terminally that pistol calibers can't come close to, more so when you take things like barriers and armor into consideration. Heck, I'd take a 12 gauge over a PCC for HD.

Something like the Copperhead would certainly be an improvement over a standard pistol though. But for HD, there are much better options.

I have a TP9 that I replaced the trigger with a flat after market trigger and that was a huge improvement.

As many here know I chased the idea of a .357 sig PDW and that was a total bust.

I put the TP9 in the truck if I am going a distance from home or office, but the rest of the time I just carry the 357 sig pistol I put together which gives me over 2200 fps . I don't leave guns in cars so I need my truck gun to fit in a back pack and carry easy, the TP9 fits this perfectly.

For home defense it is a rifle, for the added power it brings.

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Originally Posted by yoni

I have a TP9 that I replaced the trigger with a flat after market trigger and that was a huge improvement.

As many here know I chased the idea of a .357 sig PDW and that was a total bust.

I put the TP9 in the truck if I am going a distance from home or office, but the rest of the time I just carry the 357 sig pistol I put together which gives me over 2200 fps . I don't leave guns in cars so I need my truck gun to fit in a back pack and carry easy, the TP9 fits this perfectly.

For home defense it is a rifle, for the added power it brings.

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Why no 357SIG in a PDW?

Body armour is one thing, the rise of 3-4 person attacks is another. That SIG rattler is interesting- and PDW as in outside the house and concealable? More in a bag or under a fairly heavy coat? Is that a pistol brace? I find folders more ergonomic that collapsible stocks.

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Originally Posted by MadAngler1

You aren’t selling yourself short with your set up at all, and it’s better than a handgun.

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Originally Posted by georgeib

Something like the Copperhead would certainly be an improvement over a standard pistol though.

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What makes it better than a standard pistol? Outside of suppressed use, I don't see the appeal for any practical purpose compared to a duty handgun, given that it's not select fire.

The stock is so short you don't get much leverage and are also super scrunched when shooting. The overall larger package means it's much harder to use SHO/WHO, while being less maneuverable overall. The barrel length is shorter than most duty sized handguns. Deployment is more difficult and involved than a handgun if you're out and about.

I guess if you're a shitty pistol shooter, sure, the micro PCC will give you better shooting performance. But if you're a good pistol shot, the minimal advantage of a micro PCC seems to be outweighed by its many downsides.

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Originally Posted by Defaultmp3

What makes it better than a standard pistol? Outside of suppressed use, I don't see the appeal for any practical purpose compared to a duty handgun, given that it's not select fire.

The stock is so short you don't get much leverage and are also super scrunched when shooting. The overall larger package means it's much harder to use SHO/WHO, while being less maneuverable overall. The barrel length is shorter than most duty sized handguns. Deployment is more difficult and involved than a handgun if you're out and about.

I guess if you're a shitty pistol shooter, sure, the micro PCC will give you better shooting performance. But if you're a good pistol shot, the minimal advantage of a micro PCC seems to be outweighed by its many downsides.

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The improvement would be the additional points of contact for sure. That said, if you're a stellar pistol shooter, then any advantages start diminishing pretty quickly, and the fact that it would be slower than a pistol to bring to bear would start to hamper its benefit even more.

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Originally Posted by Defaultmp3

What makes it better than a standard pistol?

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In general, additional points of contact for greater stability. Better platform for optics, red dots, etc. Usually higher magazine capacities and in many cases longer barrels (7.5" vs. 4").

Of course everything is a trade off, in general handguns are easier to conceal, usually faster to employ and in most cases a much lighter defensive tool.

Don't criticize a wrench because it isn't a hammer, don't criticize a hammer because it isn't a wrench.

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Originally Posted by FromMyColdDeadHand

Why no 357SIG in a PDW?

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For several different reasons, first is feeding issues, second for some reason it just tends to chew up the guns. I spent a bunch of time and money to try and get it to run. I gave up and just accepted that my shoulder fired gun and my pistol will have different mags. So for real covert I use my TP9 and for a little bigger gun I use a 7.6sx39 Zastava which is only 19 inches long with the stock folded.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

In general, additional points of contact for greater stability. Better platform for optics, red dots, etc. Usually higher magazine capacities and in many cases longer barrels (7.5" vs. 4").

Of course everything is a trade off, in general handguns are easier to conceal, usually faster to employ and in most cases a much lighter defensive tool.

Don't criticize a wrench because it isn't a hammer, don't criticize a hammer because it isn't a wrench.

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The problem is the "in general" part. With a stock/brace that short, you're super scrunched up; I don't find that to be conducive to shooting outside of standing on a flat range with no movement, or possibly barricade work. As for being a better platform for optics, I don't see any major advantages over an optic ready handgun. If reciprocation is such a big deal, you could always get a rail mount, à la ALG 6SM or other open-gun-type options. You can't easily mount a WML on it except at the 1200, and then with as short as the handguard is, switchology will be wonky. The barrel is 3.5", not 7.5". There is no real way to attach a suppressor, given that it has an integrated flash hider. The magazine it ships with is a 20 rounder; pretty easy to fit in a larger mag for a pistol.

I'm not against small PCCs, I have a CZ Evo cut down to K length, and I think something like the MPX K is perfectly cromulent. I'm questioning the utility of super tiny PCCs like the MPX Copperhead that have given up so much to get to that size. At least with an MP9 or FLUX Raider, you can easily attach cans and have rails on more than the 1200. With the Copperhead, I'm just not seeing the juice being worth the squeeze at all; by my analysis, you're not getting any significant upsides compared to a pistol, have many downsides, all for an extremely niche application (civilian PDW use, but something like an MPX K or Rattler is too big).

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Originally Posted by Defaultmp3

The problem is the "in general" part. With a stock/brace that short, you're super scrunched up; I don't find that to be conducive to shooting outside of standing on a flat range with no movement, or possibly barricade work. As for being a better platform for optics, I don't see any major advantages over an optic ready handgun. If reciprocation is such a big deal, you could always get a rail mount, à la ALG 6SM or other open-gun-type options. You can't easily mount a WML on it except at the 1200, and then with as short as the handguard is, switchology will be wonky. The barrel is 3.5", not 7.5". There is no real way to attach a suppressor, given that it has an integrated flash hider. The magazine it ships with is a 20 rounder; pretty easy to fit in a larger mag for a pistol.

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So I've done the shooting under, around and over with a MP5K and a MP5K-PDW, I will take the "short, scrunched up" stock every time.

As far as optics, when was the last time you put a Eo XPS2 on a handgun?

As far as barrels, I was discussing most PDW platforms, not this one specifically.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

So I've done the shooting under, around and over with a MP5K and a MP5K-PDW, I will take the "short, scrunched up" stock every time.

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Sure, I'll take a stock over no stock if we're talking about PDW sized weapons. But the comparison is handgun to tiny PCC with a super short stock, not tiny PCC with super short stock versus tiny PCC with no stock. In terms of shooting performance, anecdotally, we had a CBP AMO guy show up with a Glock 47 and an APC9K at a local competition; he did much better with his Glock than his APC9K. When we all coonfingered it afterwards, we all agreed that it kinda sucked to shoot, and that the pistol would typically be a better choice, outside of utilizing the APC9K's select fire capability. The AMO guy himself noted that he much preferred his MK18 over the APC9K in terms of just shooting mechanics, and was more than willing to take the hit on extra space the MK18 took in the cockpit.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

As far as optics, when was the last time you put a Eo XPS2 on a handgun?

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If size is such an issue, I don't think an EOTech would be a viable option to begin with.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

As far as barrels, I was discussing most PDW platforms, not this one specifically.

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As I've noted, my complaint isn't against PDWs in general, but the MPX Copperhead specifically. I explicitly named things like the MPX K to be fine.

I like it OP.

My 9" .357 SIG AR platform PCC runs 100% with Glock mags. Don't be afraid to try it. In my experience, finding a barrel will be the toughest part. I needed no special parts to make it run 125gr pills from the start.

It was between this and a flux raider for me when I was thinking tiny bag gun for travel. I own the raider currently.

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Originally Posted by darin10000

My 9" .357 SIG AR platform PCC runs 100% with Glock mags. Don't be afraid to try it. In my experience, finding a barrel will be the toughest part. I needed no special parts to make it run 125gr pills from the start.

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@yoni was trying to build one, but kept running into various roadblocks. Where did you find the barrel?

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Originally Posted by Defaultmp3

As I've noted, my complaint isn't against PDWs in general, but the MPX Copperhead specifically.

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My error, I was speaking in general "handguns vs PDWs."

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Originally Posted by Defaultmp3

Sure, I'll take a stock over no stock if we're talking about PDW sized weapons. But the comparison is handgun to tiny PCC with a super short stock, not tiny PCC with super short stock versus tiny PCC with no stock. In terms of shooting performance, anecdotally, we had a CBP AMO guy show up with a Glock 47 and an APC9K at a local competition; he did much better with his Glock than his APC9K. When we all coonfingered it afterwards, we all agreed that it kinda sucked to shoot, and that the pistol would typically be a better choice, outside of utilizing the APC9K's select fire capability. The AMO guy himself noted that he much preferred his MK18 over the APC9K in terms of just shooting mechanics, and was more than willing to take the hit on extra space the MK18 took in the cockpit.

If size is such an issue, I don't think an EOTech would be a viable option to begin with.

As I've noted, my complaint isn't against PDWs in general, but the MPX Copperhead specifically. I explicitly named things like the MPX K to be fine.

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If the targets are all under 25 yards then yes the duty pistol is probably faster if you are a good pistol shot. But if we start putting tatlrgets out at 50-100 yards you'd have to be a world class pistol shooter to outshoot me with a short stocked or braced PCC.

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Originally Posted by C-grunt

If the targets are all under 25 yards then yes the duty pistol is probably faster if you are a good pistol shot. But if we start putting tatlrgets out at 50-100 yards you'd have to be a world class pistol shooter to outshoot me with a short stocked or braced PCC.

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I don't know if I agree with that. I can hit a 100 yard IPSC target without much issue, maybe 3 seconds from the draw with my concealment setup, and I'm hardly a world class shooter, just a lowly high C-class open USPSA, if we're doing just flat range stuff. I think a lot of folks have way too low an expectation with handguns.

If you're braced up against a barricade, sure, I can see it being faster with the Copperhead for follow-on shots, but that seems such an extraordinarily niche role to have, to sacrifice everything else with the Copperhead, when something just a smidge bigger can have a lot more capability. I can fit a whole LAW-folded 10.3" AR into a day pack (albeit it does look a little funky), while people are throwing Rattlers into laptop bags.

Not my pics, but a feller I know fits his MCX Rattler LT (6.75" barrel) into a 15 liter messenger bag.
https://i.imgur.com/BZfsoEB.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/H2O1teH.jpeg

An MPX K or CZ Evo K is like 14" folded. SIG's website says that the Copperhead is 11.8", probably slightly over 12" if you consider the folding mechanism of a stock. For 2" or 3", you get way more bang for buck, IMO, with much more usable rails, ability to mount a can, etc.

At one point in my life I would have said these items were a bit of overkill, no pun intended; and that a pistol and perhaps a spare mag depending on the locale and possible scenarios would be more than sufficient to handle any untoward event. However, given the state of the world, the inane political situation, hordes of criminal illegal aliens in most areas, such an item is more than reasonable to carry about and keep in vehicle. Now to develop one for myself given the suggestions noted here.

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Originally Posted by georgeib

@yoni was trying to build one, but kept running into various roadblocks. Where did you find the barrel?

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Quarter Circle 10 used to mfg 3 length of 357 Sig barrels; my build in 7.5". I wish I would have picked up more, but hindsight is 20/20.

@yoni... your mailbox is full

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Originally Posted by darin10000

Quarter Circle 10 used to mfg 3 length of 357 Sig barrels; my build in 7.5". I wish I would have picked up more, but hindsight is 20/20.

@yoni... your mailbox is full

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Sorry about that it is now empty.

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Originally Posted by Defaultmp3

I don't know if I agree with that. I can hit a 100 yard IPSC target without much issue, maybe 3 seconds from the draw with my concealment setup, and I'm hardly a world class shooter, just a lowly high C-class open USPSA, if we're doing just flat range stuff. I think a lot of folks have way too low an expectation with handguns.

If you're braced up against a barricade, sure, I can see it being faster with the Copperhead for follow-on shots, but that seems such an extraordinarily niche role to have, to sacrifice everything else with the Copperhead, when something just a smidge bigger can have a lot more capability. I can fit a whole LAW-folded 10.3" AR into a day pack (albeit it does look a little funky), while people are throwing Rattlers into laptop bags.

Not my pics, but a feller I know fits his MCX Rattler LT (6.75" barrel) into a 15 liter messenger bag.
https://i.imgur.com/BZfsoEB.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/H2O1teH.jpeg

An MPX K or CZ Evo K is like 14" folded. SIG's website says that the Copperhead is 11.8", probably slightly over 12" if you consider the folding mechanism of a stock. For 2" or 3", you get way more bang for buck, IMO, with much more usable rails, ability to mount a can, etc.

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Yeah the Rattler makes it hard to want to carry a full size pdw like an MP5, or apc9.

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Originally Posted by WickedWillis

Yeah the Rattler makes it hard to want to carry a full size pdw like an MP5, or apc9.

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K versions would be the more direct comparison.

The issue I have with the rattler, is when MAC tested it if I remember correctly it was only in the 1700fps range.

The Underwood Leighi Defense 9mm out of a 4inch barrel gets 1800 and if you go up in barrel length it is kissing 2000fps.

Keeping in mind that Jim Cirillo documented that things in actual shooting changed dramatically in rounds above 1900fps. This has become my benchmark and was part of what started my .357sig Leighi Defense fan boy status.

Darin was a lucky guy and got a blow back 357 sig AR that works. The company that made it no longer makes it, because it is just too easy to mess up a blow back AR in 357 sig.

I went ahead and went with the TP9 for this role. I'm quite happy with everything except the trigger, as has been well discussed all over the internet. It's like a 10 pound sponge, and on my short list of things to upgrade. That said, it's shootable, and using the stock makes it very quick to get on steel at 100 to 150. With the factory can it's reasonably quiet, and while it shoots everything pretty well, it groups 147's nicely.

IMHO, this platform and others like it, far exceed the performance of a standard handgun in their particular niche. I can understand the hesitation to splurge on entirely new platforms, if that's what holds people back, but the capability definitely exceeds that of a duty-size handgun. I don't have any experience with the Flux or other pistol frames or whatever they're being called, so I don't know how that compares, but the PDW/ K-type guns make a lot of sense to me for the "more than a handgun, less than a true rifle" type scenario. YMMV.

Get the Custom Smith flat trigger for your TP9, it improves the feel of the trigger.

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Originally Posted by nick84

I went ahead and went with the TP9 for this role. I'm quite happy with everything except the trigger, as has been well discussed all over the internet. It's like a 10 pound sponge, and on my short list of things to upgrade. That said, it's shootable, and using the stock makes it very quick to get on steel at 100 to 150. With the factory can it's reasonably quiet, and while it shoots everything pretty well, it groups 147's nicely.

IMHO, this platform and others like it, far exceed the performance of a standard handgun in their particular niche. I can understand the hesitation to splurge on entirely new platforms, if that's what holds people back, but the capability definitely exceeds that of a duty-size handgun. I don't have any experience with the Flux or other pistol frames or whatever they're being called, so I don't know how that compares, but the PDW/ K-type guns make a lot of sense to me for the "more than a handgun, less than a true rifle" type scenario. YMMV.

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I'm a fan of the TP9. I haven't shot one in probably 10-15 years and have pretty limited trigger time on it. If I had found one for under 1500 bucks I likely would have bought it.

I might be crazy but I swear they were like 700 dollars around 2010 timeframe.

I think I got mine in about 2012-14 and I think I paid $1000 for it.

So my PDW niche is TP9 when it needs to be really small and light.

Zastava with a 10 inch bArrel for when it can be a little bigger and a little heavier and I need added power for 9mm

In SOME scenarios a PDW in 9mm is THE option. Think a church - I do. I can train all I want and I may NEVER feel comfortable hitting accurately and safely with a pistol and not penetrating into a child, etc. Anything over 7 yards is a challenge when pumped. Here is where the PDW/PCC comes way ahead in the calculation. Heck, my wife who rarely shoots can hit with a PCC at 25m with no practice.

I cannot overestimate my capability. Not when I am responsible.

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Originally Posted by Defaultmp3

but that seems such an extraordinarily niche role to have, to sacrifice everything else with the Copperhead, when something just a smidge bigger can have a lot more capability.

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I agree with this. While i have some PCCs in 9mm, and wouldn't necessarily feel under-gunned with them, my main concealable PDW is a 300BLK with 7" barrel, PA EFAB brake, and micro dot. I run the Barnes 110gr Black tip in 20-round pmags, and it hits a lot harder than 9mm. Worth a little extra size IMO