What single AR round hits like 4 .36 caliber pellets @1225 fps?
That's a .410 by the way, you know a little kids gun.
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What single AR round hits like 4 .36 caliber pellets @1225 fps?
That's a .410 by the way, you know a little kids gun.
I willing to my 458 Socom up against a 410, no problem.
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Oh I agree the 458 Socum and 450 Bushmaster are thumpers. But I'm guessing the vast majority of people who use ARs for HD are using .223/5.56.
Does any ballistics expert here think that there is any such round that can stop an intruder faster with one single shot than a .410 with 000 buck at very close range like HD?
I just don't see it. But I am not an expert.
I don’t plan on just firing one round during a defense scenario. I like shotguns and I agree that a close range hit with a defense shotgun load is likely catastrophic. To me the problem is the shotgun takes much more training to run, and very few people can run a Bill drill with a shotgun as fast as a carbine.
I’m not against a shotgun for personal defense, but I would suspect most of us have far more rounds thru ARs than shotguns, and if I have to get in a close range gunfight at night I want my most familiar weapon in my hand. That said, I think if you make good hits with a 5.56, .300 AAC, or any buckshot load you’ll likely turn any threat room temperature.
Why are we talking about a single round? Are we limited to single shot break actions or did you forget to load a mag into your AR?
Well lets break it down, we know pistols suck at stopping people mostly because they lack any temporary stretch cavity that rifle velocity rounds produce. If you hit someone 4 times with basically a 9mm diameter projectile would that be considered better than a good solid hit with a rifle projectile?
There are many such cases of bad guys absorbing multiple pistol rounds until someone with a rifle puts an ends to a shenanigans.
I believe the opposite is true…I am much more capable of planting a 5.56 round precisely where I want it and since accurate shot placement typically trumps round horsepower I’ll stick with my AR, especially in a scenario where a loved one is being used as human shield.
I was thinking go with what you're trained with and prepared to deploy against said intruder.
"Aw it was just a handful of 00 pellets or one 55gr bullet, I'm fine and will just go now" said no intruder ever as if we're using a Ruger No 1 as our self defense choice.
AR or SD Shotgun with equal training and manipulation skills is probably a complete tossup.
On another note I don’t own a 410 and not sure why I would limit myself to one when I have two 12ga shotguns that I train with.
So when comparing a .410 to an AR15, you have time on target (rounds impacting), and terminal performance. So you have to ask yourself at what speed can you get 4/5 rounds into your target from your AR vs. .410, and how much damage will result.
Obviously all pellets from a .410 will impact essentially at the same time. With a 1-2” spread will they cause as much damage as a defensive 5.56 round?
For me personally, I’m confident I can deliver much more damage from my defensive 5.56 rounds at a speed and hallway distance that a .410 doesn’t even register on my list of potential HD defensive firearms.
That’s all without factoring in all the other pros of using a semiautomatic rifle with a 30 round magazine.
Does a shotgun deliver more energy on target with a single shot? Yes. A shotgun is an ax, while an AR is scalpel, at 15ft a 69gr Gold Dot through medulla oblongata equals flaccid paralysis…lights out, doesn’t get much faster than that.
Ive seen several people shot with 12 gauge buckshot. And from a pure damage on target angle, the 12 gauge is probably king for shoulder fired weapons.
That being said, I think many times the difference is more academical than real world. For example. Lets take a single round of 77 grain TMK center chest. The round is immediately going to fragment the entire front end and absolutely shred the heart. Is a round of 12 gauge 00 buckshot center chest going to do more damage to the heart? Yes. But either way the heart is going to cease function immediately. In my experience good hits with either are usually fight stoppers.
The only places where I think the buckshot has a legit advantage are sub optimal hits at slightly longer ranges where the buckshot spread has better chances of hitting vitals. Also maybe with head shots. We've had several cases where a 223 round has hit the thick bones of the face or teeth and diverted at an extreme angle and come out the side of the face. I find it highly unlikely that all pellets from buckshot would do that. I havent heard of that happening.
There are a couple more aspects to home defense that haven't been mentioned yet. Multiple attackers, and also the proliferation of body armor. In both of these increasingly more common scenarios, an AR in 5.56 holds easy advantage over a shotgun.
If hes wearing body armor, no comparison on effectiveness.
4 round balls 70gr with an unpredictable terminal path with no TC? No thanks, If I had 1 shot it would be an AR with bonded soft point.
If i ran a 410 it would be slugs... then you compare that to cased ammo, and why not use that?
410 sucks all around
^This
If your hits are good, it doesnt matter. If your hits are bad and follow up shots are needed then you need to ask how fast is your recovery time? Can you pump the action at speed 100% of the time without short stroking?
With an AR-15 its not difficult to get some shooting 0.25s splits on a A-zone at 7 yards.
Lets look at 12 ga slugs for stopping power vs 223/556.
Hornady Magnum Crush, it's a .72 caliber slug that weighs 666 grains. Muzzle energy 3800 ft/lbs
What's the ballistic info on the greatest 223/556 round there is?
Just funning with you guys. Don't mean nothing.
You seem to be focused on one aspect of a HD scenario. What about speed of follow up shots? What about multiple individuals? What about taking accurate low percentage shots? What about maneuverability? If you have enough real world experience and add as much induced stress to all of your practice and training, you should be able to take out six home invaders with a six shot .22 pistol. This subject has been discussed in-depth multiple times on this forum. The discussions include real world examples, statistics, and date. Best tool for the job and all that…
Always fight with a bird gun. That's common sense! ARs are your hobby. Birdguns are the answer!
Use the Chappelle rule for home defense.
https://youtube.com/shorts/0Jsgpl6_d...T5j9rd-PYLd1ti
You can get in several follow-up shots quickly with one of these.
https://godversusreligion.com/wp-con...le-slugger.jpg
NFA rules apply to corked bats!:(
$200 stamp for this piece.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...66463c697f.jpg
Wood bats are 1800s technology and they break. Aluminum alloy is the modern technology. :cool:
The better question is why would he hunt birds inside the house?? That's got to be illegal. Plus the drywall repairs and such. Feathers and shit all over the place... it's just dumb all the way around.
(TRANSFER THIS THREAD TO ARFCOM where retards use bird guns and lock the ARs up for safe keeping)
I never said I would use a 410 for HD. I asked a simple question that no one seems to be able to answer. Instead some want to be defensive and adversarial.
I wonder why that is?
.223/5.56 defensive rounds > .410 000.
The 12g by sheer volume alone will probably cause more damage. Some of that damage (from over penetration) could be to things you’re trying to protect. It’s been stated multiple times on this forum and this thread, that there’s a host of other factors in firearms/ammunition selection for home defense. At this point I’ll assume you’re a troll due to your myopic focus on one of these factors.
What answer are you looking for? Do you want everyone to be like, "holy crap, you're right! .410 buckshot is the real deal and i'm going to ditch my HD AR for a shotgun!! Shotguns are so superior ballistically at close range! Who knew?" ??
Shotgun vs AR for HD has been discussed adnauseum on the interwebs, and the affects of rifle caliber damage and energy on target is well documented. Everyone knows that shotguns, especially 12 gauge, are DEVASTATING at close range with good ammo. Literally nobody is debating that. But there is a lot more that goes into home defense and gunfighting than just single-shot damage capability. Things like recoil, ammo capacity, ease of reloading, split times, and maneuverability, are all important components in a gunfight, and areas where an AR beats out a shotgun all day.
And don't get me wrong, I love my 1301 Tactical, and wouldn't hesitate to grab it for home defense, and i'd rather get shot by a rifle than 12 gauge buckshot at close range. But I still grab my rifle over shotgun every time when i hear a bump in the night.
Just cruising through, but I'll take a stab at answering your question.
Your initial posts and follow-ups sound like you have already made your mind up/have an agenda:
What single AR round hits like 4 .36 caliber pellets @1225 fps?
That's a .410 by the way, you know a little kids gun.
And, from that mention of .410 it is understandable that folks think that is what you are talking about. I want to make a couple of points:
First off, I feel that the decision whether to use an AR or a 12ga shotgun for HD is largely a matter of choice and proficiency. It is my opinion that it is easier to train to realistic HD proficiency with an AR, than it is with a shotgun.
At inside the home distances, buckshot doesn't have much spread, so the precision needed for an immediately incapacitating stop isn't appreciably different with either the AR or the shotgun, so that's a wash.
I think where I would begin to edge toward the shotgun is what those pellets do upon impact. You started with 000B, so let's stay with that. You have eight wound channels, at inside HD ranges probably varying from quarter-sized to hand with spread fingers-sized dependent on range and manufacturer. At HD ranges these rounds have enough energy to penetrate into the chest cavity and damage the heart and lungs to the point that physical (versus psychological) incapacitation, while not instantaneous, will occur within seconds. The 5.56/.223 projectile doesn't do as much apparent initial damage, but inside the body the projectiles velocity is such that hydrostatic shock will tear a larger, permanent wound cavity in any soft tissue it transits - heart and lungs. If the projectile traverses the heart, it is likely to cause that organ to immediately cease function, resulting in the same type incapacitation as the shotgun. Neither of these is an immediate, guaranteed shutdown.
For immediate shutdown, the spinal cord needs to be severed/bruised/damaged at or above the fourth cervical vertebrae. With proper point of aim, either the shotgun or the AR is capable of achieving this shutdown, but the velocity of the AR projectile gives it a little more 'slop' factor IMO - a hit through the eye orbit that misses the brain stem is still going to shut things down.
In terms of multiple assailants, IMO the shotgun doesn't loss as much edge as many folks think. With proper follow-through transition to additional targets isn't appreciably slower. Faster splits on trigger with an AR doesn't necessary equate to faster hits on the second target for the HD shooter of average proficiency.
For me, noise is also a factor, unsuppressed the 16" AR puts out 165+db; the shotgun puts out around three to four decibels less, which is enough to be noticed, although it is still in the dangerous range. Suppressed the AR should be in the neighborhood of 135 to 145db, which although not hearing safe, is substantial better than the unsuppressed AR or shotgun.
So, TL:DR - I'd make the choice based on my perceived abilities with either firearm and whether my AR was surpressed.
Second point, in the formula for kinetic energy, velocity is squared. this means as velocity doubles, energy is quadrupled. So, lets run the math:
OOB = 4x66gr=264gr x (1225x1225=) 1,500.625 = 396,165,000/450240 = 879.897 ft-lbs
5.56 - 55gr x (2900x2900=) 8,410,00 = 462,550,000/450240 = 1,027.34 ft-lbs
Answer to your question: a 5.56 round at 2900fps.