God Father Movie Question for the Brain Trust...

God Father I,II, and Coda (GF III) are on a loop on one of the streaming stations and I turn it on for background noise as I tidy up.
So, I was watching and trying to understand the relationship between Hyman Roth and Michael Corleone.

As they began to negotiate for a Casino in Cuba, did Hyman Roth already know the gig was up and the rebels would win?
In other words was Roth cutting his losses by selling out of Cuba at a critial time?

Why did Roth tip his hand with the in depth Moe Greene story? Didn't he at that moment accuse Michael of the murder and seem willing to forgive and forget if he brought him the two million dollars?

Why did Michael have to murder Hyman Roth?

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Originally Posted by Averageman

God Father I,II, and Coda (GF III) are on a loop on one of the streaming stations and I turn it on for background noise as I tidy up.
So, I was watching and trying to understand the relationship between Hyman Roth and Michael Corleone.

As they began to negotiate for a Casino in Cuba, did Hyman Roth already know the gig was up and the rebels would win?
In other words was Roth cutting his losses by selling out of Cuba at a critial time?

Why did Roth tip his hand with the in depth Moe Greene story? Didn't he at that moment accuse Michael of the murder and seem willing to forgive and forget if he brought him the two million dollars?

Why did Michael have to murder Hyman Roth?

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Nobody knew who would win, which was why Roth wanted investors. Btw, Roth was based on Meyer Lansky. Roth was hoping Baptista would retain power which is why he was annoyed when Michael said they might win.

Roth was planning to murder Michael, partly in retaliation for the murder of Moe Green. Roth ordered the killing of Frank Pentangeli to make him think Michael Corleone betrayed him and weaken his position.

And yeah the whole "it was only business" song and dance was because he wanted Michael to invest in the casinos. He then planned to kill him.

Michael had Roth murdered because Roth betrayed him and was never gonna stop trying to kill him.

A little off topic, but I have watched these movies over and over. A little bit of trivia I have learned is that a few scenes before someone dies an orange is in the scene. I don't recall an orange before Roth is killed.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Nobody knew who would win, which was why Roth wanted investors. Btw, Roth was based on Meyer Lansky. Roth was hoping Baptista would retain power which is why he was annoyed when Michael said they might win.

Roth was planning to murder Michael, partly in retaliation for the murder of Moe Green. Roth ordered the killing of Frank Pentangeli to make him think Michael Corleone betrayed him and weaken his position.

And yeah the whole "it was only business" song and dance was because he wanted Michael to invest in the casinos. He then planned to kill him.

Michael had Roth murdered because Roth betrayed him and was never gonna stop trying to kill him.

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So there was always some risk with Cuba, but every day that Michael was there the risk seemed to grow, by the time he was hesitant to invest, the odds were likely 60/40 for the Revolutionaries. Roth had to know the odds and I think he was padding his losses by trying to sell shares in a Havana Deal that would likely as not, not exist in the upcomming years.
I think Roth knew Cuba was a hiogh risk investment and he wanted out, he wanted some sort of guarentee, like Las Vegas.
I think Roth was going to take the money of his "Investors" and buy back in to Las Vegas as the Corleone's had essentially pushed him out by that time. All that money that was a lost that would have significantly weakened the Corleone's.
No you are right, it was personal to Hyman Roth and I don't think he would have stopped until he killed Michael. Killing him as he stepped off the plane was a sure sign to everyone else, don't "F" with Michael Corleone.

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Originally Posted by Rob96

A little off topic, but I have watched these movies over and over. A little bit of trivia I have learned is that a few scenes before someone dies an orange is in the scene. I don't recall an orange before Roth is killed.

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I heard it as a bad luck for the Corleonis or the indication of an enemy. Godfather buying oranges during the assassination attempt, and them spilling all over the ground. Oranges on the table during the families peace conference with oranges prominantly in front of Gandzini(?).

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Originally Posted by Rob96

A little off topic, but I have watched these movies over and over. A little bit of trivia I have learned is that a few scenes before someone dies an orange is in the scene. I don't recall an orange before Roth is killed.

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I heard it as a bad luck for the Corleonis or the indication of an enemy. Godfather buying oranges during the assassination attempt, and them spilling all over the ground. Oranges on the table during the families peace conference with oranges prominantly in front of Gandzini(?).

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Originally Posted by Averageman

So there was always some risk with Cuba, but every day that Michael was there the risk seemed to grow, by the time he was hesitant to invest, the odds were likely 60/40 for the Revolutionaries. Roth had to know the odds and I think he was padding his losses by trying to sell shares in a Havana Deal that would likely as not, not exist in the upcomming years.
I think Roth knew Cuba was a hiogh risk investment and he wanted out, he wanted some sort of guarentee, like Las Vegas.
I think Roth was going to take the money of his "Investors" and buy back in to Las Vegas as the Corleone's had essentially pushed him out by that time. All that money that was a lost that would have significantly weakened the Corleone's.
No you are right, it was personal to Hyman Roth and I don't think he would have stopped until he killed Michael. Killing him as he stepped off the plane was a sure sign to everyone else, don't "F" with Michael Corleone.

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All those things were factors, but for everyone in the film, once you make a move to kill someone, you better see it through because eventually they will figure it out and come for you. In these films a central theme is everyone is trying to kill everyone, even those they consider friends, because in organized crime you don't actually have friends. At the end of the day it's all business.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

All those things were factors, but for everyone in the film, once you make a move to kill someone, you better see it through because eventually they will figure it out and come for you. In these films a central theme is everyone is trying to kill everyone, even those they consider friends, because in organized crime you don't actually have friends. At the end of the day it's all business.

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I’ve read several true-crime books on the mafia and this is definitely true. It is unreal how easily they killed each other over slight infractions or just to get ahead, even among “friends” and guys that grew up together.

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Originally Posted by flenna

I’ve read several true-crime books on the mafia and this is definitely true. It is unreal how easily they killed each other over slight infractions or just to get ahead, even among “friends” and guys that grew up together.

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Organized crime is a cult with cult rules built in. You follow ALL orders, especially the ones you don't agree with. Once "killing your buddies" becomes standard practice all options are open. Only in the movies will you find people in the mafia who aren't willing to sell drugs to children, murder innocent people and things like that. If you make it into upper levels of organized crime, at that point you've already done more reprehensible shit than most people can understand that there is no reason you wouldn't kill anyone for any reason. And if you try and maintain some kind of moral compass, everyone else will see it as weakness and you won't last a month because people will line up to take your spot.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Organized crime is a cult with cult rules built in. You follow ALL orders, especially the ones you don't agree with. Once "killing your buddies" becomes standard practice all options are open. Only in the movies will you find people in the mafia who aren't willing to sell drugs to children, murder innocent people and things like that. If you make it into upper levels of organized crime, at that point you've already done more reprehensible shit than most people can understand that there is no reason you wouldn't kill anyone for any reason. And if you try and maintain some kind of moral compass, everyone else will see it as weakness and you won't last a month because people will line up to take your spot.

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My father grew up in Brooklyn and it was well known the mafia ran the neighborhoods. Interestingly enough he said the neighborhoods were never safer than when the mob ran them. No one messed with old people or kids, your Mom could walk down the block at midnight and feel safe. All the violence was mafioso on mafioso and gang on gang. Anyone messing with a kid or elderly person was found in a dumpster the next day.

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Originally Posted by flenna

My father grew up in Brooklyn and it was well known the mafia ran the neighborhoods. Interestingly enough he said the neighborhoods were never safer than when the mob ran them. No one messed with old people or kids, your Mom could walk down the block at midnight and feel safe. All the violence was mafioso on mafioso and gang on gang. Anyone messing with a kid or elderly person was found in a dumpster the next day.

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I know what you refer to, at the same time if those old folks owned a business and couldn't come up with protection money, they might end up in the dumpster. The mafia does understand PR and certainly doesn't tolerate a lot of competition from "other" criminals and the create the misconception that they protect their own neighborhoods.

And typically they are deep enough into every level of local crime that they don't personally come after the locals who live there and they often depend upon them as a form of intelligence network. But if somebody kills grandma for her collection of antique silver dollars or some drug addict kills somebody else for drug money, at the end of the day part of that score of silver coins got kicked up to somebody and the local mafia got a piece of the proceeds from every drug sale in the area.

Factor in that in many areas the cops are paid off and to the untrained eye it might "look" like the mafia is some kind of neighborhood watch when needed.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

I know what you refer to, at the same time if those old folks owned a business and couldn't come up with protection money, they might end up in the dumpster. The mafia does understand PR and certainly doesn't tolerate a lot of competition from "other" criminals and the create the misconception that they protect their own neighborhoods.

And typically they are deep enough into every level of local crime that they don't personally come after the locals who live there and they often depend upon them as a form of intelligence network. But if somebody kills grandma for her collection of antique silver dollars or some drug addict kills somebody else for drug money, at the end of the day part of that score of silver coins got kicked up to somebody and the local mafia got a piece of the proceeds from every drug sale in the area.

Factor in that in many areas the cops are paid off and to the untrained eye it might "look" like the mafia is some kind of neighborhood watch when needed.

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Really that is what it boiled down to- they didn’t want any competition in their AO. Only they could extort the local businesses and outside crime would be bad for their business. Same thing in Vegas when the mob ran it- the average Joes visiting thought it was the safest place around so they would hang around and lose their money. The locals and business owners knew what would happen to them if they got out of line, though.

Double tap…

Well according to legend these guys started off as "Robin Hood" like figures keeping the "Robber Barrons" in check. Pretty interesting to look in to anyway.

In America the story they would like to tell is they kept the neighborhoods safe and regulated commerce both in and out, making money for everyone.

Then the vice's began to take hold and again that was regulated and away from local homes and businesses.

Pretty much, the Avergeman could mind his business and not become involved in any of it and never have an issue.
I got a story or two of my Families involvement in construstion and trade unions in Chicago.

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Originally Posted by Averageman

Well according to legend these guys started off as "Robin Hood" like figures keeping the "Robber Barrons" in check. Pretty interesting to look in to anyway.

In America the story they would like to tell is they kept the neighborhoods safe and regulated commerce both in and out, making money for everyone.

Then the vice's began to take hold and again that was regulated and away from local homes and businesses.

Pretty much, the Avergeman could mind his business and not become involved in any of it and never have an issue.
I got a story or two of my Families involvement in construstion and trade unions in Chicago.

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Probably a sliver of truth to some of those origins stories.

Chinese triads began as "patriot boxer" societies trying to get the Manchu out of China, when it was forever lost after the failed boxer rebellions all those men with organization, fighting and weapon skills found other industry.

And while it's harder to pinpoint the beginnings of yakuza families in Japan, more than a few began as samurai families who lost their status with the Meiji restoration.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Probably a sliver of truth to some of those origins stories.

Chinese triads began as "patriot boxer" societies trying to get the Manchu out of China, when it was forever lost after the failed boxer rebellions all those men with organization, fighting and weapon skills found other industry.

And while it's harder to pinpoint the beginnings of yakuza families in Japan, more than a few began as samurai families who lost their status with the Meiji restoration.

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They lose their way and become the very things they were founded to fight against.

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Originally Posted by Diamondback

They lose their way and become the very things they were founded to fight against.

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Isn’t that every story from history on a long enough timeline?

The Jesse Jackson rule. Either die Young and a hero, like MLK Jr. or live in for decades, and become a self referential joke.

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Originally Posted by FromMyColdDeadHand

Isn’t that every story from history on a long enough timeline?

The Jesse Jackson rule. Either die Young and a hero, like MLK Jr. or live in for decades, and become a self referential joke.

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Yup. Die a hero or live long enough to become a villain.