Basic accuracy,
Ease of finding a folding brace, accuracy, ergonomics, etc.
I would like to hear about before I embark on yet another find the perfect AR replacement journey.
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Basic accuracy,
Ease of finding a folding brace, accuracy, ergonomics, etc.
I would like to hear about before I embark on yet another find the perfect AR replacement journey.
I have the 7.62x39. It is 1 3/4 moa. I have about 8000 on it. You can buy it with a tailhook on gb.
Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
Over three thousand on my 7.62X39 gun. 9 Inch barrel.
Ergo's are very similar to an AR15. Its a comfortable gun to shoot but its over gassed.
Folding braces are easy to adapt since the receiver end plate that comes with it is set up ready for an AR15 buffer tube.
Folding braces can get REALLY expensive. A dan haga setup with say an ACR stock and Tail hook is pushing 500 dollars. Factory Bren 2 stocks will run about two hundred.
There is no suppressor setting on the gas block on the pistol variants. The carbine has one but i have yet to read about anyone suppressing theirs as they've only been available for a few weeks.
Its a really good gun all in all but its not "better" than an AR15 in any way shape or form, its just different.
If you want something different, go for it. If you want something in 7.62X39 its an EXCELLENT option. Dont waste your money on the clear magazines though, they're garbage.
Thanks.
I plan on an 8 inch 5.56 one.
I’m kind of bummed about the AR tube adapter though vs other options. The one on the back of my PTR .308 pistol is not a direct adapter for many options.
I hope they got magwell compatibility down on this and the selector is not “off” like many others have been.
By “better than an AR” I mean equivalent or better accuracy, reliability, and durability with time saving ergonomics.
Has anyone seen the 16" on the market yet? I would really be interested in one and I know MAC just did a video on it.
There were a few on gb for $1699Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank6046
Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramairthree
I've spent more time doing dry drills than shooting the past few years, but here's my experience with a 14" 5.56 Bren 2S:
Safety
The safety has a 45* throw from safe to fire and uses an absurdly overbuilt spring loaded cam for the detents. It is stiff and gritty when new, but after 2 years of dry drills it's now very smooth and requires much less force to move out of fire or safe positions. I find its position on the lower receiver and stiffness (even after two years) to require the use of the base of the trigger finger just forward of the knuckle to have enough advantage to quickly return to safe without strain or breaking grip. I actually find this to be faster, more ergonomic, and require less grip gymnastics than returning an AR15 to safe, but YMMV.
The off-side of the ambi safety does have a tendency to dig into the firing finger just forward of the knuckle if an aggressive high grip is used. Holding where the web of the hand enters the thinnest part of the grip, or reaching around the safety to access the trigger, alleviate the issue and still allow fast control manipulation.
Bolt catch/release
The bolt catch is located in the trigger guard and is easily actuated by the trigger finger or offside thumb, both for manual bolt catch and for bolt release. As long as the safety is engaged before every mag, this shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't use it if I couldn't get the safety on for some reason. The AR15 type paddle is always available on the left side of the receiver.
I would prefer to have this control to either side outside the trigger guard, ala the ARX100, but I still prefer it to the AR15 type paddle. I'm confident it would be possible to make an aftermarket part to access this control from outside the trigger guard.
Accuracy
I don't have much info here. No match ammo was tested and I believe the quality of the ammo I used to be suspect. The only test I've done used Hornady Frontier 55gr FMJ on a windy day from a bag rest on a concrete bench. Because of the wind and short time available, the test was conducted at 25 yards using a 5x Primary Arms scope. The largest group measured 11/16ths which equates to 2.62 MOA or roughly 2.75" at 100 yards.
The barrels are cold hammer forged, nitrided on the exterior, with chrome lined bores.
An aside on cold hammer forging:
My opinion on cold hammer forging has turned sour of late. Cold hammer forging should give a little more barrel life before keyholing starts, but from what I can tell, it's a hard to manage process that can easily result in new barrels performing worse accuracy wise than comparable button rifled barrels unless strict quality controls are in place. This can negate any barrel life advantage if life is measured in terms of group size rather than when keyholing begins, as seen with some lower end Kalashnikov barrels.
Further, new stress relief techniques are coming into the industry that allow pencil profile barrels to not shift POI as they heat up. Those methods can't be used with cold hammer forged barrels, as they have stresses that can't be completely relieved.
Reliability
The Bren 2 exhibits the same quirk as many non AR15 rifles that use AR15 magazines: a lack of support for the feedlips leading to losing the top round in the mag out the ejection port if it is inserted on an open bolt too energetically. I've experienced this with both USGI and Lancer magazines, but only if slamming the mags in harshly on an open bolt. Changing mags as quickly as I can, the way I did in competition, does not cause the issue.
The Bren 2 features an Adverse gas setting. I'm willing to bet this goes a long way to improving function in case of silt/dust/grit debris ingress.
All other information I have on this comes from CZ demo vids. They do appear to feature the Bren 2 being dropped from 10+ meter heights, run over, and completely buried in sand with successful full auto firing immediately afterward.
An interested observation: the Bren 2 features a clearence cut between the carrier and receiver along the bottom of the ejection port. This would allow debris to fall into the receiver between carrier and receiver, against the right side between the magazine and magazine well. I'd speculate this was done to prevent debris build up here to pass some specific test.
Stock/Brace Issues
The M4 buffer tube adapter is wobbly on both examples I own, but adequate. It can be tightened up with some simple DIY if desired.
Factory folding stocks are made of the same very lightweight carbon fiber composite and cost about $200, but are hard to get at the moment. This is expected to change in the coming months.
Dan Haga makes an adapter that allows the use of the Magpul ACR stock, but it partially blocks the ejection port when folded and also requires removing a screw to remove the stock for cleaning.
IIRC, two different companies are working on folding braces or brace adapters for the factory folding stock for the Bren 2.
Suppressor Use
The Bren 2 pistols lack a suppressor setting on the rotating gas selector cylinder that will cycle the weapon. They do, however feature an off setting that simply lacks a gas port. It should be a simple task for a gunsmith to drill a smaller gas port here and transform "off" into "suppressed." The gas cylinder is also an easily replaced part, should CZ offer them as spares.
My 14" 5.56 Bren 2S works well on the normal gas setting using a Silencerco Omega. The 14" does have very small gas ports in the gas cylinder and the Omega is a .30 cal can, so that may have something to do with it. I do not notice a large amount of gas near my face when shooting nor a significant increase in felt recoil.
I haven't tried my 9" Bren 2MS in 7.62x39 suppressed yet, but I have noticed that its gas ports are at least 4-6x larger than those on the 14" 5.56' gas cylinder. At least one other user has reported harsh recoil and gas in the shooter's face with a suppressor using a 9" 7.62x39 Bren 2MS.
Final Thoughts
The Bren 2 has a pretty fantastic design story. It was essentially made by spec ops, for spec ops. The story involves a former high-level Czech spec ops guy somehow becoming involved with CZ and ends up with him and his kind of people having a lot of control over the design and testing of the weapon, based on their combat experience with the Bren 805 in Afghanistan. Considering that the Bren 805 was an overweight pre production proof of concept made of aluminum, instead of the intended polymer, that got shoved into production by bureaucracy, makes the Bren 2's design and adoption just five years later that much more unique.
The Bren 2 has no "sproing" in your ear, it's lighter than most other Not-An-AR15 options and features a folding stock (or will soon), consistently reported <3 MOA accuracy, faster than AR controls, and potentially better than AR adverse condition performance. Parts life remains to be seen, but the G36 and SCAR 16 have good reputations in that area and the Bren 2's design is similar. Barrels can be changed without need for a workbench, hand tools only. CZ has a good reputation for providing spare parts for the old Bren 805, including barrels, and the Bren 2 appears to be finding a warm reception in the American Not-An-AR15 market so far.
The Bren 2 is enjoying some military success, equipping the Czech Army, Hungarian Army, French GIGN (in 7.62x39), with other countries considering it or adopting it in small numbers.
After getting burned by the ARX100, which I really liked other than its 6-7 MOA accuracy and Beretta's appalling standards for integrity and treatment of customers, the Bren 2 is pretty much what I wanted the ARX100 to be. It's the Not-An-AR15 I've been looking for. I love mine.
This is an absolutely fantastic, detailed, and useful response.
It is very helpful.
Thank you.
Is the magazine well on the lower the same for 5.56x45 and 7.62x39? Will AR15 7.62x39 magazines work in the 7.62x39 Bren 2?
"Sort of" and "Maybe."Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret
The Bren 2's magwell is designed to accept 7.62x39 magazines the width of AK mags in that caliber. The factory mags have similar external dimensions to Magpul AK mags and, in fact, Magpul AK mags have been successfully modified to function with the Bren 2, though they don't activate the bolt catch when empty.
The 5.56 versions of the Bren 2 use a removable polymer insert in the magwell to choke it down for STANAG mags. It may be possible to use CProducts AR15 7.62x39 mags in the 7.62x39 version of the Bren 2, if the 5.56 magwell insert is fitted. I don't think this has been tried yet.
duplicate
Glad to be of help. I look forward to your evaluation of the Bren 2, should you decide to pick one up.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramairthree
Couple of thoughts here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL75snWpbcQ
The gun is seriously over gassed. The 9 inch 7.62X39 needs a suppressor port bad. I cant even begin to imagine how bad the malfunctions will get with a higher back pressure suppressor. The Sandman K is a relatively low backpressure can so that helps the situation but once I get a chance to try my Resonator K (which I theorize will be a high backpressure can), ill report back.
The clear magazines are indeed garbage. I have a sample size of two and they're both failing at the feed lips. Its a slow death as they haven't outright cracked but they're getting there.
The ACR stock is a piece of over hyped shit. My sample size of one has a cheekpiece that refuses to remain put. Its constantly moving on me and is really uncomfortable. There is also something "off" about the way the gun shoulders. I cannot wait for a chance to change this out for something better. Ideally, the factory stocks are better and someone releases a brace adapter. The fact that it doesnt fold well is also an annoyance. Mine flops around as it cannot latch onto anything (no surprise since it wasn't designed for this gun) and it came without a spring so there's no tension in the hinge.
Aries's summary of the safety was spot on. I find it to be really stiff but not unusable. I have an HBI extended safety on the left side of the gun and the factory on the right. The HBI is too long to be run in an ambi setting as it will grind into my knuckle even more so than the factory safety blade.
I am still trouble shooting my issues with my HBI handguard. Long story short, the bolt started binding over 45 inch lbs of torque on the trunion bolts. I applied loctite 2422, torqued to 45 inch lbs and am running the gun as hard as I can to see if i can get the bolts to back off. I'm crossing my fingers. HBI has been exceptionally responsive to my issues and its been a pleasure dealing with them.
What else to add...
Ah. Zero gas to the face with the Sandman K. I was super pleased with this as my turbo K on my 556 guns, being a high back pressure can, is pretty awful lol. I've had to do a ton of tuning to get those things functional. Short of the actual function issues with the Bren and the Sandman, its a pleasure to shoot. I believe that a smaller gas port should solve the bolt carrier velocity issues.
I appreciate Aries144's report, and while I've fondled the one I want (5.56 pistol) at my local shop, I'm not ready to give up my 805 SP-1 just yet.
Yeah, the 805 is still like carrying a Czechoslovakian tank around your neck, but I've encountered none of the control or mag issues the MS2 is experiencing (at least using PMags). It's a workout program all of its own, but I'm not second-guessing anything about it at the range to date.
I'll be curious to see if they address any of Aries concerns in future runs, as I still wouldn't mind having a lighter PDW.
Has the 5.56 Bren 2MS had issues with pmags?Quote:
Originally Posted by The_War_Wagon
Mine has not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries144
The issue with the 5.56 guns is that there is no support for the mag which can result in it being over inserted causing rounds to pop out of the feed lips. The bushmaster ACR had this same issue. The best way to remedy this is to use M3 magazines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries144
I wonder why they overlooked this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magsz
Also,
No 8 inch guns near me, only 11.
Which, while longer with a can than I find ideal,
Probably makes more sense.
Ok, hang on- The 5.56 magazines DO NOT overinsert. That's not what I'm describing. The overinsertion tab under the mag catch hole is more than sufficient to prevent overinsertion.
If you He-Man a mag in with the bolt locked to the rear, the top round can pop out of the mag. This is because, unlike an AR15 upper receiver, there are no lips of material on either side inside the upper receiver that support the sides of the feedlips. Every non AR15 related design I've handled has this issue. IIRC, the ARX100 has it, the SCAR has it, and the Bren 2 has it. I wouldn't be surprised if the ACR and G36 (with STANAG adapter) had it as well.
If you've ever had an issue with deforming the overinsertion lip on your USGI mags to the point that you couldn't rest the gun on the mag without inducing malfunctions, this might be an issue for you. You may also consider laying off the 1000% daily male hormone supplements. Your magazines, local prostitutes, and accessible farm animals will thank you.
Remember:
One mistake
https://i.imgur.com/BhMIVay.jpg
Can often lead to others
https://i.imgur.com/fra6Tqa.png
https://i.imgur.com/czovDah.jpg
That's a pretty obnoxious post. Let's try and keep this mature, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries144
Over time, magazine over insertion stops wear out. Coming down hard on a gun in the prone can do damage to this stop as well. Under stress, over inserting a magazine is a thing. Not everyone is a cool operator that uses EXACTLY the right amount of pressure to get their magazines to lock in while filming themselves for the 'gram.
I'm a push pull type of guy and as I've said before, I have numerous mags that I've shit canned because the over insertion stops have worn out. To date, this is all relegated to Pmags, never an aluminum or steel USGI pattern. Its a thing, whether you want to believe it or not. The ACR had horrible issues with over insertion of magazines. The Bren is a little bit better but it can still suffer from issues if the mag is inserted on the harder side of the spectrum and that top round vomits out.
Lighten up Francis. ;) Text communication misunderstanding (plague of our era) strikes again. I shouldn't have used the word "you." I mean "one" as in 'one should lay off the male hormone pills.' This wasn't an attack or aimed at you, just the result of a long day and a sudden mental image that gave me a laugh I decided to pass along in illustrated form. I'm not kidding. I wrote "He-man a mag in" and it was all over. It just flowed. 80's cartoons, steroid abuse, Testosterone 5000, vague memories of narrated youtube FLIR cam footage of a native banging a donkey in Afghanistan and everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magsz
Back on topic: I wasn't talking about over insertion dislodging rounds, just very aggressive insertion. I thought you were inferring that I meant overinsertion, and felt the need to clarify. I had no idea you'd personally broken or overridden multiple overinsertion stops. I've avoided using PMags for anything but practice since one from a bad batch of gen2 FDE pmags caused me multiple double feeds when putting down a sick animal.
In 8 years of bi-monthly 2-gun/3-gun, plus weekly practice sessions, using an AK and later an AR with USGI mags, I never had a mag overinsert. I've seen plenty of USGI mags ruined by people repeatedly slamming the shit out of them on open bolts though, thus my misunderstanding. And the He-man visual. And the warning about male hormone abuse and associated poor impulse control.
I know it's an old thread, but was there ever any resolution to the 7.62x39 version of the Bren 2 stove pipe and other malfunctions issue?
There was sort of a resolution. They did provide me a gas valve with smaller holes. It helped significantly, but I did have another stovepipe on a spent case this weekend. Aside from the over gassing, I think that another issue is the ejector. Most of the spent cases hit at the rear of the ejection port. They then bounce forward to about 12:30, often hitting the fingers of my left hand which are wrapped around the handguard. In the case of the picture below, the spent case hit the rear of the ejection port, bounced forward to hit the front of the ejection port and then got caught by the bolt carrier going forward. The design of the ejector spring seems odd to me. Why so long? I just don't think it provides enough force to get the case out quick enough.
https://i.postimg.cc/CLKKppGv/Bren-2...ipe-112722.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/KcfYW8Mk/Bren-2...led-112722.jpg
In spite of the fact that the ergonomics are great, I would not recommend buying one. CZ has failed to support the platform and it doesn't look good going forward.
It's been a year and a half since I posted above, but it's time for an update. After trying to figure it out myself and waiting a few years, I finally sent my 11" 7.62x39 Bren 2Ms back to CZ about mid-March at their expense. A couple of weeks later I received an email that stated the following:
Case Notes: Disassembled firearm completely and inspected all components. Rebuilt breech-block assembly including ejector and spring and extractor and upgraded BCM extractor spring. Re-peened extractor pin into place and polished as needed. Replaced gas plug and piston with new. Polished chamber, feed ramps, and locking lugs. Appears to have been a few issues acting all at once. Took 20 rounds to fully diagnose issues. Test fired 60 rounds S&B 123gr FMJ. Zero malfunctions. Cleaned and inspected firearm. All OK. Total round count: 80 - S&B 123gr FMJ
I have to say that those are the most thorough notes that I've ever received regarding a gun repair. Plus, they invested in 80rds of ammunition. Most gun companies fire 5-10rds at the most and call it good. Hopefully, it's a sign of good things to come. I'm also happy that they didn't try to blame the 7.62x39 AR15 magazines that I've been using.
I received my 11" 7.62x39 Bren 2Ms back two days ago and fired it yesterday. I put 120rds of Tula 122gr FMJ copper jacket through it using a D&H 30rd magazine. I could immediately tell that the ejection seemed different. Ejection was from 2:00 to 2:30 and the spent cases went about 7'. I have a lot more testing to go before I'll be confident, but I'm optimistic.
https://i.postimg.cc/4yhYpGMK/Bren-2-Ms-post-repair.jpg
Thanks for the update Bret. Would you consider disassembling the ejector so that any differences in ejector or ejector spring could be viewed? CZ's comment about the extractor spring is sufficient, I think. No need to remove and re peen the extractor pin.
I've noted 12:30 ejection on my 9" Bren 2MS and remedied it with an HBI gas cylinder, however ejection distance is only a few feet, 2:30 or so.
I've seen similar issues with an AR-10 type rifle. Ejection was weak and seemed to make malfunctions more common. A profound improvement in ejection was noted after the user began using a dual extractor bolt.
Aries144, As much as I would like to, there's no way that I'll ever disassemble the ejector assembly again. Prior to sending it back to CZ, I tried multiple ways to reassemble it. I ended up damaging the replacement spring that they sent me. I'm sure that I'm not the first person that this has happened to. There's simply no good way to do it short of a special tool or magic. I can't figure out why they made the ejector spring so long.
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Bret