Just out of curiosity, how effective is the MK12 platform in a combat environment? What range is considered its maximum effective range?
Thanks
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Just out of curiosity, how effective is the MK12 platform in a combat environment? What range is considered its maximum effective range?
Thanks
There have been reported kills out near 1000 yards. Also I have heard, no way of confirming though, that it's a favorite of SOF units.
I shot one built by High Caliber Sales earlier this year. It was a tack driver at 500 yards. I'm an average shooter but that rifle made me look good. Ammo used was off the shelf MK262, not sure of the manufacturer. Not sure on the exact optic model either as the gun was rattle canned, but it was some sort of Nightforce.
I really want one of my own. Sorry it's not a professional review, but after running a few boxes of ammo through one I was impressed with what it could do.
Very capable out to 800 but 1K is a hell of a lot more challenging & MK262 is limping at that distance. I wouldn't want to catch one but it's definitely not the steel smack that's delivered at 800. I've had my Mod1 since 06 & it still impresses the hell out of me everytime I shoot it (which is often). FWIW, I prefer the lighter weight & shorter OAL of the ModH.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ps09f7d97d.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ps8ae67823.jpg
it has a 1/7 18" barrel so its maximum effectiveness will be as far as the 77gr smk 77gr Nosler 73gr berger, 75gr bthp..etc can go. The 18" barrel doesn't lose too much in velocity to the 20".
It has a match grade douglas barrel so its accuracy should be a little better than the standard 20" A2 profile barrel...but FN CHF barrels are super amazing and Id just build a gov profile FN 18"er rather than the MK12...less expensive, lighter and probably just as accurate
I have wondered as long as I have looked at MK12's, why did they leave the gas block exposed and not use a longer rail? I haven't dedicated much time to finding this answer for myself, I must admit.
Correct.
If you're working against a time suspense from the time a project is approved, contracting cuts a check, vendors can manufacture and supply the parts, you can assemble, test, proof and ship, and then run pre-deployment training you have to work with proven suppliers.
From 9-11-01 go plus and minus 2 years and remember who could meet commercial-off-the-shelf rail, trigger, barrel, bipod and mount, and scope delivery time-lines.
These photos are just one example of a 500-unit order (this one for 3rd Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division and attachments) for OIF in 2005. Same goes for any other order (such as USASOC) from the time a project is approved, contracting cuts a check, and now you have to wait for commercial bits and pieces. Meanwhile the unit is still in pre-deployment scheduling and they want to know when their rifles will be ready so they can schedule ranges and people to be in the right place at the right time in the correct uniform.
http://i36.tinypic.com/243oqwx.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/257lqw4.jpg
Those are cool pictures sinister. Thanks for posting them.
As ridiculous as it sounds, where we were the most valuable part of the Mk12 was the optic on it - having a decent glass with some reach without having to rely on binos was great, the next most useful part was the can (deal with big-ass feral dogs without alerting every talifag for miles).
The smooth shooting and quiet nature of shooting of that system sold me on having suppressors on basically any semi-precision rifle, not to mention that spending some coin on glass really enhances the effective range when fed solid ammunition. I really wish I could have carried one in a-stan (our unit just didn't have any), since the times I was outside the wire I wound up being most useful as overwatch (since we were working I&W/comms, the math nerd with 20/8 eyesight who shoots fairly high expert is probably the guy you want on the Mk12).
Hey one of those might have been mine!
2005 on FOB Normandy
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/m...003/dfADFD.jpg
The first point mirrors the AAR that I wrote for 24 MEU when we got them in AFG, the TB know the limits of the observations capability with the RCO, MGO and SDO and hang out in the shadows just beyond where you can PID them while the optics on the Mk11s and Mk12s could still PID them and engage.
The second point agree that the suppressor was a useful tool because it confused them at where they where being shot at from and at distance allowed 2-3 shots sometimes before they re-acted. But I remember when my MiTT first got suppressors in Iraq and one of my team member tried to shoot a dog thinking it would be like in the movies and it was pretty loud.
The report of the firing is sort of 22 like, a suppressed 556 would not be my choice of weapon to silently do anything.
Agreed but FWIW, I ran across a thread awhile back where an end user mentioned 100gr subsonic ammo (that cycled) being used for quiet dog elimination. Looks like this commercial load that's no longer available. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-as-an-airgun/
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...psf3b02487.jpg
The super-simple answer would be to run 7.62NATO, and that's often what gets used when magazine/ammunition inter-compatibility isn't the requirement, since it's great at that in a precision system - same concept for a subsonic load that can be used for quiet one-off use even if it's non-ideal. It needn't be super-quiet (first round pop + sound of the action cycling is going to be fairly loud) to be an improvement, enough signature mitigation to make location identification of the shooter hard is helpful, and with really good optics again (3-18x or 5-25x from Leupold or S&B respectively) they can do more than just put rounds on target for COIN ops.
I was being sarcastic towards the other guy. Making the statement "a suppressed 556 would not be my choice of weapon to silently do anything" is off-topic and frankly offers no meaningful information. My point is, there is no round available (that i'm aware of) that allows you to quietly and effectively engage targets at 600+ meters.
Back to the topic, the closest thing to doing exactly that is the Mk12, and that's why its use seems to have gone well beyond what a lot of people would have expected out of a light precision rifle - it was the quietest available to our squad sized patrols, had the most optics and effective range for the same role, and it's light/compact enough that that guy doesn't require another weapon system for MOUT/compound clearing/other nonsense. At distance 'quiet' and 'effective' are relative, putting a round on target anywhere against an unarmored jackass in a mandress is going to put that guy out of the fight for a while and dissuade his stupid buddies from emplacing IEDs in the same spot, being able to do so without completely telegraphing the location of an overwatch team is fantastic. A lot of the value of the Mk12 is that they became a squad or even fireteam level asset (which is why the STANAG magwell became so important), so a lot of the inherent limitations of that platform were at least mitigated by having more of them at the sharp end (meaning that the benefits went out with every patrol).
For my part, I was so enamored with the concept that I wound up with two SPR-format uppers (a CMMG M18 and Centurion Mk12 barreled upper with Leupold TS30A2). I have since started to work on a slightly more compact variant of that setup for my personal uses, and after a couple iterations I've wound up with a 16" High Caliber Sales Recce upper with an OPS 14th can - basically trimming 4" off the front in equal parts of suppressor and barrel, while running a more modernized KAC (URX3.1) handguard. My particular example is in that blurred line range of Recce Rifle more than Mk12, but if another contract went out for the same effective treatment of updating the Mk11/M110 to the M110-C then I think a rifle nearly identical to mine is what the result would be. This setup likely gives up some terminal performance, but given the sort of results MarkM and Pappabear are getting out of similar 16" uppers and Mk262-esque handloads I really think it would be a passable answer for a .civ application of a squad DM.
700-800m seems reasonable, longer on a good day.
In the SPR Course I did a few years back with GPS Defense in Phoenix, you will engage targets on the last day out to just over 800 yards. I actually made a shot with the loaner rifle using BH MK262 ammo at around 864 yards.
The original question was about combat effectiveness. People often forget that putting rounds on target is not necessarily synonymous with lethal effects.
It is essentially a 3gun rifle that was the heater in the early 2000s. Still a good rifle but largely out of use.
With the right bullets and a skilled shooter, I would cap its COMBAT effectiveness on target at more like 500m. Some peers and I were just discussing a similar topic the other day, and the unanimous decision was that we wanted something bigger than .308 for beyond 800m. Sure guys are making shots at targets at much farther ranges, but we weren't talking about making steel sing. There is a big difference that isn't often considered.
It's remarkable how different people with significant combat experience can have different opinions. I know two people with kills at approximately 900 yards with the Mk12 and another with an M4 at 600y. One of them had other rifles available, to include a 300WM. Now I don't have the experience to take a position personally but that has a certain amount of significance to me when discussing the max range of 5.56mm. Sure one of them was a Group guy (NG) but the other two were a leg and an Infantry officer with an ACOG.
The latter says approximately "I don't need to kill them at long range. With a hole in them I can run them down and empty their head at close range."
Making a one off shot at range with a less than ideal platform is one thing, choosing a weapon for full time longer range use is a different one. Some guys at work have had some pretty impressive shots with MK18s but does that mean I would carry one by choice in a 400M+ range gunfight?
No.
This is correct, the Mk12s have been pulled along with the Mk11s. The M110 is to fill those roles. I was in 5th in 98' when I worked on the SPR with Steve Holland. We were working toward a separate match upper to swap with our standard M4A1 for a target rich environment since SOCOM wouldn't field a 7.62 semi gas sniper rifle (SR25s too few and they were only on loan for max 6 mos). Crane later built compete rifles instead of just a receiver.
CD
You will continue to see the mk12 in use just like the MK48 when everyone went to 240Ls, even though it is no longer a supported weapon. For what it is the mk12 is a awesome weapon. 600m is the sweat spot for this rifle but hits at 800m is possible. I have accomplished hits on IPSC size tragets with both m193 and m855 at 800m. Of course it is no 1 shot hit but it is possible. The mk12 really shines in heavy urban environments such as Iraq were most precision rigs never see 600m shots as the rule.
The debate on lethality and terminal ballistics at long range with the 556 will never end. Not sure were I find myself siting on which side but from personal experience people in my unit have killed dudes at 800-900m with m855 from area weapons (i.e. mk46/m249). Not sure if it is optimal to be killing dudes at almost a kilometer with 556 but it can get the job done. I think people tend to forget that at 1000m your rounds are arching in like a mortar round and theoretically still have enough kinetic energy to easily pierce skin.
Any one who says that 762 nato is insufficient at killing at 1000m is mistaken as that round is still very capable at that distance.
I love my mk12 and it will always be a apart of my panoply just like a 14.5, or 10.5, different jobs require different tools.
no the solicitation was originally just for a upper, but dudes in units quickly realized that they wanted match trigger. At least that is what I have been told by old timers who were around back then.
It was originally the Special Purpose Receiver but they had issues with the original M4A1 buffer (H) on auto under some conditions and so they got the M16A1 lower.
A lot of good points in the thread. The mention of quality optics in the hands of someone that knows how to use them gets overlooked by a lot of people, but can't be emphasized enough. Glad to see it mentioned here.
Good glass plus variable magnification, especially anything 6x and higher, is a huge advantage for soldiers who are the type that take the initiative and report up what they see to small unit leaders in proximity and position to act on that info.
The Leupold 3-9x36 MR/T, 2.5-8x36 MR/T, NightForce 2.5-10x24, USO 1.8-10x37, and similar compact variables with good glass do a lot for a DM and his unit. More on glass later, but it is arguably more important than the guns themselves.
The 2 biggest things that I take away from the DM skill set (which is really a historical squad sharpshooter that was removed from the MTO&E back in the 1950's) are:
* Increased situational awareness for the dismounted Infantry Squad provided by a well-trained observer/shooter/communicator, with quality optics
* Increased effective range on enemy targets of opportunity, as well as increased hit probability within normal engagement distances for the riflemen
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...1/image628.jpg
Mk.12 Pros and Cons
I think the Mk.12 brings several pros and cons in these two areas, but the tool aspect gets put into perspective when you accept the importance of the training aspect, at about a 15/85% ratio, with the training obviously being the most important.
Positions
From solid supported positions, the 18" SPR AR15 does really well. Once you get away from a lot of nearby solid shooting structures (like in urban and built up areas), and have to shoot from field positions, it starts to suck a bit, depending on the size of the shooter. Bigger guys with the right build can sometimes set up into hasty positions better, but it is more difficult to shoot for a lot of guys, especially with the barrel profile and a quad rail handguard. That increased overall and forward weight is also an issue in higher altitudes, where oxygen is limited. That is the main trade-off between a 14.5" or 16" carbine, and an 18" medium/heavy target gun with pineapple rail.
Accuracy
Accuracy that I have seen from the guns is excellent, and .5 MOA is not uncommon with a Douglas Super Match pipe with Mk.262, probably in excess of what most shooters can even exploit outside of a relaxed, prone supported position with rear bag. Velocity is also pretty hot with Mk.262, pushing the upper edge of 5.56 NATO pressures. I would argue that the Mk.12/Mk.262 is probably the most accurate self-loading sharpshooter system ever fielded.
My thoughts on the system are that an 18" gun might be ok for units conducting dismounted patrols working from vehicles in urbanized areas, with the understanding that the DM's primary role as a rifleman in the CQB fight is going to allocate him to the tail-end of any maneuver elements, but does really well for support once in position. A 16" gun would allow both, and since the distances are usually well within 600m, the case is even stronger.
Areas for Improvement
The main area I see for improvements in this regard are lightening up the gun, still using high quality pipes, but with a much lighter profile. If you select quality steel, with a concentric bore, square faces, true threads, etc., with someone that knows what they are doing for the reaming process as well, there is nothing wrong with the JP 18" and Lilja Wasp profile pipes. I would easily reach for the lightweight/heavier fore end pipe from those two over a medium/heavy contour without thinking twice about it.
For a training environment on KD ranges, the medium/heavy contour makes a lot of sense for class volume, but not for carrying and shooting positions. Even that said, these JP and Lilja lightweight/heavy for end barrels shoot very well for me over extended range sessions. Combined with a lighter weight handguard and 2-point quick-adjust sling, the 18" guns start to become very manageable.
Ammunition
One area where performance can be picked up if a shorter barrel is used is the BC of the projectile. The 75gr A-MAX has really demonstrated that for me, even though I was of the school of thought that it couldn't be loaded mag-length in the AR15. A guy showed up to one of my DM Courses in 2013 with a few hundred loaded up, with a light crimp to take away the exposed mouth. I thought we were going to have major issues with him and his loads, but he ended up being the one impacting steel in very adverse weather conditions with an 85% hit rate out to 600yds. That .435 G1 BC of the 75gr A-MAX combined with a lightweight 16" MLGS carbine (Centurion pipe), even though it would "only" hold 1.5 MOA, was the set-up to beat, and that was going head-to-head with 18" .223 Wylde and LMT MWS .308 guns shooting Match ammo.
I think the new Tipped 77gr SMK with .420 BC, or even the TSMK 69gr with .375 BC would make a 16" DM Carbine as potent as the 18" with Mk.262. Use a light/heavy for end profile, quality barrel with tight twist, maybe nitride it for longer throat life, use a very lightweight handguard like the BCM KMR, and look at an optimized compact optic with better than decent glass, rugged features, smart reticle design, and you would have a series of improvements for the SPR/Mk.12 legacy moving forward.
Bigger Picture
The bigger challenge with the whole mess is getting the Army to support its own doctrine and MTO&E with the training at the unit-level, as well as providing a solid platform and ammunition to support that 15% side of the equation. The AMU has been carrying much of the burden in this regard, God bless them, and that spirit needs to be internalized and codified at the Combat Brigade and Division Levels, as well as in the Officer and NCO Training and Professional Development Systems.
A 2-Day DM Course for IBOLC candidates should be part of the POI, run by AMU. Since the DM is one of the EM slots in the Infantry Squad, his Team Leader needs to be an SME already on the duty position as well, and retain the capability as a DM in the TL slot. Where will this skill set be taught, maintained, evaluated in the ARTEP and common skills tasks? Those are the issues I'm looking at. Sorry for the rant, but this is something very near and dear to me.
That was a good read. I've had my Mod1 for many years and love the rifle... but it's the Mod Holland that I reach for when the yotes get the livestock worked up in the middle of the night. 16" + 12th is noticeably more pleasant to carry for an extended period of time vs 18".
If you think that setup is awesome, 16" with 14th is a real peach - take 2" off both the barrel and the can. Not that I'm biased or anything, but a 9lb rifle that shoots that well under solid glass means the hardware can be sorted easily compared to making the doctrinal and training changes to really run that to its best. To a degree it does work pretty well to have the most math/shooting inclined guy in the squad be the DM (especially if there's a dedicated weapon system to augment that ability), but I'd put even more emphasis on the communication end of that deal. For the continuing COIN environment I experienced it was a truly excellent tool before the selector leaving 'Safe'.
Complete druthers would be an M4/M4A1 MURG with a 16" tapered contour SS barrel (the MSTN-Noveske would be the benchmark for that at the moment), a goldilocks optic (2-12x32mm Leupold Mk6 type setup with Horus/CMR reticle), and a can with a 6" OAL (reflex if possible, OPS 14th or an SF FA556 shortened by one baffle) - net result is something the same length as an M16, maybe half a pound heavier, and being the sort of 600m swatter Dano's talking about with minimal tradeoff compared to a carbine, and requiring a 7.62 weapon system to do much more. Unless some seriously intelligent people start re-working the training curriculum and empowered small unit leaders to make decisions about what toolset to draw from the armory, then this is a better solution than mass fielding M110/M110-C setups.
Agreed regarding the KAC. Love my SR, but she's a pig. I alternate between an AEM2 (M4M) & a 15th on my 15-22 "Mod H". It's wearing an SSA in addition to the AE/Ops can so legit enough for a rimfire plinker. Shoots damn good & hollywood quiet w/ subs. It's now wearing an SPR grip as well, nice combo w/ the MK12 platform IMO. I wouldn't mind having a 14.5" Recon profiled for the AEM2 w/ the PRI tube, that would be a kick-ass pairing w/ 77gr TMK's.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ps3b605148.jpg
5.56 bigger brother
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...psb34c0716.jpg
& a little Mod1 love since I'm posting pics
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ps8ae67823.jpg
Ah, I remember when you posted that one on Facebook. That is one hell of a slick pinker.
I'm thinking of doing a Holland style build but using my 15th (I don't have a 12th).
I need V7 to make a titanium barrel nut for PRI tubes :)