Low/no light shooting

The range I have a membership with has "tactical Tuesdays" where we shoot various scenarios and tonight was low light with shoot/no shoot targets after an entry.
I've never done anything like this and I know I need to change some gear. My handguard is going to be changed to something that will allow me to mount the pressure pad on the top. I think I want a taller optic mount as well. For some reason my earpro kept getting in the way, and I never noticed that before.
Anyway, I can't afford night vision, but I'm all ears for suggestions or training tips.

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You talking low light with a rifle or pistol or both?

With a rifle I prefer a pressure pad. I generally shoot my rifle with my support thumb on top of my rail. I have my pressure pad mounted a couple inches behind my front sight so my thumb rests in the gap and only needs to move back a smidge without grossly altering my grip to activate the light. Not a fan of tail cap activated lights as I have to alter my grip more than I want.

Low/no light shooting is a must in my book. These I"ve been playing with NV but before that it was white light all the way.

I also typically prefer a pressure pad at 12 o'clock on my rifles, but I don't altogether trust them and I believe they are a potential failure point so I use Surefire DS00 tailcaps for the backup switch. Call it a love/hate relationship. IMO one of the negative are the cables you need to deal with,
I'm using a Cloud Defensive LCS to hold the pad of a SF ST07 switch and a combination of FCD and Arson Machine cable guides, here is a thread on them... M-LOK Wire Management

One of the drills we do is work with several black targets, either painted and/or clothed black, and paint cheap dollar tree type guns black and place them on wires hanging from a few of the target. The goal is to ID the armed bad-guys and shoot them and not smoking any of the non-armed good-guys, missing a bad-guy mean your dead. It can be pretty challenging seeing the black pistols against black threats and it requires a top notch light to make it happen reliably. I've been very happy with my Modlite OKW and PLHv2 lights, they blow the doors off my SF dual fuel.

Which handguard do you have that will not allow a pad on top? Most things can be made to work, even the ol' polymer type.

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Originally Posted by El Vaquero

You talking low light with a rifle or pistol or both?

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We shot both last night. Pistol is VP9 w/holosun and Surefire 300. Carbine is 11.5" with YHM Turbo and Surefire scout.

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Originally Posted by titsonritz

Which handguard do you have that will not allow a pad on top? Most things can be made to work, even the ol' polymer type.

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Thanks for the link. The handguard is an ALG, pretty minimal and is pretty small diameter, so mlok nuts hit the gas tube where I would want the pressure pad.

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Originally Posted by czgunner

Thanks for the link. The handguard is an ALG, pretty minimal and is pretty small diameter, so mlok nuts hit the gas tube where I would want the pressure pad.

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You could just use zip ties or OneWrap to keep the tapeswitch in place.

Both low light and shoot/no shoot are two big components that I neglect greatly. Have the pressure switches reached an excellent level of reliability???

My old rule was NO WIRES on my guns.

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Originally Posted by markm

Both low light and shoot/no shoot are two big components that I neglect greatly. Have the pressure switches reached an excellent level of reliability???

My old rule was NO WIRES on my guns.

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Which is why I use Surefire DS00 tailcaps for the backup switch.

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Originally Posted by titsonritz

Which is why I use Surefire DS00 tailcaps for the backup switch.

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Those do look nice. I worry about adding multiple switching because my brain can't do two things at once. I'm already in need of practice just running my tailcap switches.

Also, any recs for a taller mount for my Aimpoint Micro H1? It has the OEM throw lever mount with 39mm spacer. It looks like its absolute cowitness with my irons.

Lots of quality lower 1/3 height mounts out there. I have a Geissele and Daniel Defense mounts. Have also used Midwest Industries. All are good. Just depends on whether you want a QD type mount or not.

They make some taller ones these days but any higher than lower 1/3 and your existing iron sights won’t work. You’ll have to buy some offset ones if you want to keep irons sights.

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Originally Posted by czgunner

Also, any recs for a taller mount for my Aimpoint Micro H1? It has the OEM throw lever mount with 39mm spacer. It looks like its absolute cowitness with my irons.

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Originally Posted by El Vaquero

Lots of quality lower 1/3 height mounts out there. I have a Geissele and Daniel Defense mounts. Have also used Midwest Industries. All are good. Just depends on whether you want a QD type mount or not.

They make some taller ones these days but any higher than lower 1/3 and your existing iron sights won’t work. You’ll have to buy some offset ones if you want to keep irons sights.

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I am moving away from my 1/3 lower mounts in favor of the Unity FAST mount which has a 2.26" optical centerline height and a window with rear sight that allows use of standard height sights, it also come with a front sight post that can be used in lieu of a separate front sight, albeit with a very short sight radius. It comes stock with a torx mounting jaw that is very clean and low profile, but one can add their QD lever option if desired. They are spendy but I can not recommend them enough.

There are suppose to be 1.93" compatible irons coming from Scalarworks, IIRC, they showed them off at SHOT: https://scalarworks.com/shop/iron-sights/peak-02/

If you want an NV-optimized height mount, the Unity FAST is a decent set-up, while you can save a few bucks and go with the Midwest 2.33" one. ADM has a 2.33" with QD if you want, but it does not have a port for irons. The KAC Skyscraper is also 2.33".

If you just want a taller mount in general, lots of options for 1.93". Scalarworks, Arisaka, Geissele, Reptilia, Spuhr (well, 1.89" on that one), etc. There are also lower 1/3rds that are closer to 1.7", like ADM, LaRue, or Bobro's high mount.

During a Defoor class he had us do low/no light rifle and pistol drills.
It was really interesting to see how fast the wheels came off - most of us (me most of all) were not sufficiently set up for any of this type of shooting.
Very sobering, considering how often things go boink at night
I now try to shoot low/no available light whenever given the chance. I consider it one of the more essential skill sets.

I shot a pistol match last night that we did low light shooting for the first time ever. Was not much to it but was able to use my 226 with X300 for that stage.

I almost signed up for a Frontsight class that was lowlight but never did. I would love to do more training on low light. Ive done jackshit and need it badly. And is probably the situation where I would need to use a gun.

PB

From the few low/no light classes I’ve taken, I almost feel like I’m faster with my pistol than I am in daylight conditions. I haven’t put it to the test with a timer, so it’s probably all in my head. At 15y and in, my weapon light almost feels like a huge MOA dot on the target. I wouldn’t say it does anything for my accuracy, but the light on the target seems to make things go bang faster. I’m not sure if it’s necessarily a good thing so I hope I never have to try it out for real!

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Originally Posted by polydeuces

interesting to see how fast the wheels came off - most of us (me most of all) were not sufficiently set up for any of this type of shooting.

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What were some of the challenges? Equipment? Ability?

You can dry fire and test all this out every night in the house.

Surefire tape switch has been 100% reliable for me.

Been a 'few' years so let me try n remember.
All training/classes are/were '9-to-5' so the entire lo/no light spectrum rarely gets addressed, other than "you need to have a good weapon light".

Most of it (especially rifle) was obvious-stupid-basic: insufficient light, not able to see the target.
Crazy how much light you need to id a target at even 25yds. Not just volume, but focus, if that makes sense.
Hard to hit anything if you cant see sh#t.....

Also muzzle blast, recall the difference between ammo. That steel case Tula/BrownBear stuff put out these massive flames. It did have an effect on your night vision.
Reiterating the essence of suppressors if wanting to remain concealed....(alive?)

My main takeaway was to have a bright enough weapon light (be it pistol or rifle) with enough of a focused beam. AND a laser - especially on my pistol, dialed in for whatever max distance is reasonable. AND a laser. With suppressor as cherry on top....

Red dots on pistol is big these days but having tried a few set-ups its not for me, so yeah laser is my go to.
Another thing I find helpful is large enough sights - tritium suppressor height sights really help, on so many levels. I'm in the process on putting them on every edc pistol i own.
(But then again I'm getting old and my vision is going down the drain).

I'd love to hear others' experiences.

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Originally Posted by polydeuces

Most of it (especially rifle) was obvious-stupid-basic: insufficient light, not able to see the target.
Crazy how much light you need to id a target at even 25yds. Not just volume, but focus, if that makes sense.
Hard to hit anything if you cant see sh#t.....

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No doubt. We shoot a night shoot maybe once per year. Amazing how difficult a 100 yard target is to see or hit even with a decent rifle light.

It really becomes a 50 or shorter deal.

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Also muzzle blast

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Last time I shot a night class some dude ran a Cav Comp, and it was flashing gloriously.

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Red dots on pistol is big these days but having tried a few set-ups its not for me, so yeah laser is my go to.

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Yeah. Red Dots have a long way to go before I'd consider one. I shoot my buddies all the time, but it's not for me... yet.

We shoot low light just enough to realize how ill prepared we are. Another buddy of ours has killer NOD gear, and since he never practices with it, it's a whole learning curve when he brings it out.

If you wear corrective optics might be a good idea to train without them occasionally too... you may not remember or have time to grab your glasses or put in contacts when Things Go Bump In The Night, and I can't really recommend sleeping on your back and never taking 'em off like I do. (Granted, I'm on a round-the-clock schedule so my sleep is 90 minutes a a time rather than straight-through, but... yeah, can't recommend that either.)

Getting older and your vision going to crap.
An issue worthy of a separate discussion; 'work-arounds' and solutions.
Another reason why a good weapon light is a must.

Circling back to Marks' question:
Low light No light Pistol, another take-away: night sights are useless.

Caveat - my eyesight, especially at night, has taken a serious dump. Therefore the following is based on MY experience:


Using bright weapon light to 'paint' the target (i.e you can see whats safely deemed to be a target in a somewhat hi-stress situation) they are strongly backlit rendering their 'tritium' etc function negligible - any regular iron sight would serve.

Only time I can see that 'bright tritium front dot' was when it was dark enough, light off, meaning I can no really safely id my target.
They no longer have any real world use for me.

Again - this is my 'reality'; you may have a different experience.

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Originally Posted by polydeuces

Circling back to Marks' question:
Low light No light Pistol, another take-away: night sights are useless.

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Almost COMPLETELY Usless! If you're using them, you can't possibly also have positive target identification. I qualify that with "almost" because there could be a rare set of conditions where the night sights combine with partial lighting, or for some reason you're firing from a dark room into a lighted area. But come on... I NEVER spend money on tritium sights. Plus most h0m0s are going to dot sights anyway.

My tritium sights were bright enough to stick out on a cloudy day. Very useful until i switched to rds. I wont buy them again since they suck for NV use.

Uh-oh, did I just come out? Lmao!

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Originally Posted by titsonritz

Low/no light shooting is a must in my book. These I"ve been playing with NV but before that it was white light all the way.
One of the drills we do is work with several black targets, either painted and/or clothed black, and paint cheap dollar tree type guns black and place them on wires hanging from a few of the target. The goal is to ID the armed bad-guys and shoot them and not smoking any of the non-armed good-guys, missing a bad-guy mean your dead. It can be pretty challenging seeing the black pistols against black threats and it requires a top notch light to make it happen reliably. I've been very happy with my Modlite OKW and PLHv2 lights, they blow the doors off my SF dual fuel.

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Just read your post; sounds like a real (fun) challenge.
(Lets face it - NVG is just not obtainable for the 99% of us....;-)

Wanted to ask,
At what distance were you running these drills?
And in your experience what would be a realistic 'max' distance to run no/low light light drills; is there a minimum output/type of light - pistol/rifle, etc?
Any other takeaways?

Thought my gear was mostly squared away in whats considered real world - 'intruder in house', 'close and personal' type scenarios; but once I actually started running drills and extending range clearly I was not.
Convinced this goes for the majority of us - we simply don't practice in this environment and are unprepared for this essential skill set.

Kind of off topic, however, not worthy of its own thread.

I was engaged in skunk warfare with my clip on thermal late one night. I noticed the thermal screen really screws up your night vision when not looking through the scope.

Do any of you night shooters have any mitigation advice?

Shot a couple stages last night in low light, one moving other stationary. Its kinda good to have to get light out, turn on and go to work. Glad this indoor match is adding some value.

PB

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Originally Posted by HKGuns

Kind of off topic, however, not worthy of its own thread.

I was engaged in skunk warfare with my clip on thermal late one night. I noticed the thermal screen really screws up your night vision when not looking through the scope.

Do any of you night shooters have any mitigation advice?

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Try putting a red lense or film over the ocular.

Red doesnt impact your NV nearly as much as white

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Originally Posted by MegademiC

Try putting a red lense or film over the ocular.

Red doesnt impact your NV nearly as much as white

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Thanks, great suggestion.

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Originally Posted by polydeuces

Just read your post; sounds like a real (fun) challenge.
(Lets face it - NVG is just not obtainable for the 99% of us....;-)

Wanted to ask,
At what distance were you running these drills?
And in your experience what would be a realistic 'max' distance to run no/low light light drills; is there a minimum output/type of light - pistol/rifle, etc?
Any other takeaways?

Thought my gear was mostly squared away in whats considered real world - 'intruder in house', 'close and personal' type scenarios; but once I actually started running drills and extending range clearly I was not.
Convinced this goes for the majority of us - we simply don't practice in this environment and are unprepared for this essential skill set.

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My apologies for this late response, I’m just now seeing it. The drills I was talking about in my earlier post were from behind VTAC barricades from 35 to 50 yards with my AR. As mentioned I was using my Modlites, the carbine was equipped with a AP Micro. I have used a LPVO with my OKW head out to 200 yards on full size silhouettes but not with blackened pistols like described in the drill.

Pistol drills were 25 yards and closer with a RDS and SF X300U. And yeah, night sights are pretty useless.

I’m convinced there is no such thing as too much light at night shooting. I saw a bunch of lesser lights not up to the task of extended ranges.

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Originally Posted by titsonritz

I saw a bunch of lesser lights not up to the task of extended ranges.

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For sure. I have some cheaper Solarforce LED modules where the beam is really too focused for indoor use, and even those suckers aren't good at 50 yards and beyond.