Civility (aka the "We Will Crush Your Balls" edict).

Gentlemen,

I suspect that more than few of us went to Sunday School as boys, and as such, we should be reasonably familiar with the principle of treating others as you would have them treat you. Even if you never stepped foot in Sunday School, the truths here are pretty self-evident.

We're having a problem around here lately. It's not the spiraling downfall in post quality. It's not the influx of new members who don't yet seem to understand what we're all about. It's not the general rise in white noise. It's not the resurgence in tin-foil hat conspiracy posts. It's not the fellows that have been posting increasingly goofy rifles in the home build section. It's not even the emergence of guys who happen to have particularly strong opinions about the current administration or the latest push for gun control legislation in whatever form.

The problem we're having lies with the otherwise peaceable folks who seem to think that their fellow members no longer deserve a measure of basic respect if/when the opinions of said members diverge from their own dearly-held beliefs (on whatever the topic). We've been very clear on the fact that bitter debates, personal attacks, name calling and baiting will not be tolerated, but apparently the message has grown stale with age. Kindly allow me to freshen it up slightly in the interest of maintaining the peace around here.

If you disagree with a point another member has made, you may freely engage his facts or issues and make your points. If you belittle him as an individual in the process, or otherwise imply that he is intellectually-deficient in some way, we will crush your balls.

If you call another member a name in a manner that is in any way interpreted as hostile or sarcastic (because sarcasm is a huge accelerant -- if not the most volatile of them all), your balls will be summarily-crushed.

If you get into a heated debate with another member that even slightly resembles an open argument (or is laced with the aforementioned sarcasm), go ahead and slap 'em up on the table, because we're going to crush them.

If you direct profanity at another member with even mild ill intent, kindly drop trou. Your balls? Yeah, we're crushing them.

If you happen to think that your position(s) and/or belief(s) on a matter are so sacred as to create immediate offense if/when you encounter someone who might feel differently, do not respond to them. If you do, you will almost surely project an air of ire and intolerance. At that point, you may consider your balls as good as crushed.

I could go on, but I believe the point has been gently made. The staff has been instructed to be on watch for this kind of behavior, and to root it out without a lot of discussion; especially in the near-term. If you happen to wade into those waters anyway, and you happen to have balls ... well, you know the rest. Please take it like a man, and avoid the grousing and protests.

Clear, brothers? Let's make an active effort to "be at peace with all men," and put away any personal gripes we may have against another member. If that approach leads you to take one on the chin when you did nothing to deserve it, let us know and we will take whatever action is necessary to restore tranquilly. Hint: your tormenter's balls, and the crushing thereof, will almost certainly be involved.

This is a professional resource: let us have no more of this sixth-grade crap.

Please and thank you.

AC

Awesome. You could also just close down GD, ya know ;)

We know, Bax, we know ... but the hard lessons of the past tell us that killing GD would just result in these OT discussions spilling over into the more technical areas of the site, which is even less acceptable than the troubles we're dealing with right now.

Truth be told, I'm not a hard-liner kind of guy at all, and the above was written with at least some passive aggresive nod towards humor; that said, we are serious about this, and we've got to get a handle on the bickering. It is beneath the quality standards of the site, and it is dragging all of us down with it.

Members are getting knotted up over it, the staff is running around all over the place trying to referee the skirmishes, and (probably worst of all) new guys are seeing this stuff go down and assuming that M4C is just another Internet free-fire rant zone.

We can do better. We must do better.

Guys that would share their ammo or canteens with any of their fellow members here suddenly want to punch some of those same dudes in the nose because of some goofy position on a social, religious or political issue? That's truly not seeing the forest for the trees.

The view is always better from the high ground.

AC

I think this is what the staff has to do if nuking GD from orbit is not an option.

Are there any thoughts on those forum members that post solely in GD?

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Originally Posted by Littlelebowski

Are there any thoughts on those forum members that post solely in GD?

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I can speak only for myself here, as I'm not aware of any particularly recent staff discussion along those lines. Personally, if a guy only cares to populate GD, he's probably missing the whole point of this resource, but that (in and of itself) doesn't necessarily mean he's contributing to a problem, or that he should be rooted-out and discarded. The manner of conduct is still what we will tend to use as the GO/NO GO standard in those cases.

What it does mean is that he's chosen to focus on a fairly high-risk area at the expense of far more important ones, and sooner or later, he is likely to get so accustomed to the bickering that he will inadvertently become a part of the problem himself. Not really because that was his intent; just because he's made a habit of staying in an area that sees more than its share of daily train wrecks.

We see much the same thing with members who have a habit of unusually-high posting activity (i.e. the guys who seem to comment on everything just to keep themselves entertained). At some point, some of these guys get so far out of their lanes that they throw out dialogue that simply begs to be beaten down and/or corrected. Again, no malicious intent, but the end result is still discord.

We try to stay focused on the content that shows up on the boards, rather than the individuals who put it there. When the content is not acceptable, or it marks an open invitation for a skirmish, we deal with the member(s) responsible; that said, we don't want to make this stuff any more personal than the guy on the receiving end wants to be singled-out or infracted.

This is why we keep hammering away at the idea that is isn't who you are or what you believe that creates friction; it's how you present your views, and -- here's the real kicker -- how you respond to others who may feel quite differently. We all tend to be fairly passionate about those things that matter most to us, but there is a fine line between suggesting an alternate point of view, and going for the throat of someone with whom you cannot seem to see eye-to-eye.

Some guys aren't aware of that line; others simply choose to ignore it. Both are ripe for involuntary compression of their man sacks.

AC

Thanks for the reminder Chuck! And I apologize that my thread was no doubt a contributing factor to your posting this topic :(

ETA: I browse many media outlets and usually watch 2-3 (even CNN) to get my news. I like to get it from all biases. Given that, I enjoy I GD for getting news as well; primarily since we are all like-minded and the productive discussion that can ensue. That said, I don't think I'd be for nuking GD.

A/C-
I love your posts man. They always make me laugh my arse off!

I agree, GD should remain. It is a wonderful forum to gain insight into others views/opinions, share thoughts and cross reference information.

The fact that some cannot maintain an adult attitude should not make us abandon the GD forum altogether, that makes no sense.

Thanks for holding INDIVIDUALS accountable for their actions instead of punishing the group. It is needed more and more in this world- across the board!

I hate seeing GD threads go sour due to grown men acting like little boys measuring dicks and slinging feces.

We are all here to learn and share, no reason to put eachtother down or make anyone feel inferior due to their specific opinion, religous belief, politics or otherwise.

We need more true debate and less arguing. It all starts with thinking before posting. The preview button is your best friend second only to the search button...

People need to grow thicker skin or just bow out. No one is forcing GD on anyone else...

Thanks and take care A/C; it's good to see you posting so regularly again sir, for a plethora of reasons! :)


Let the ball crushings commense!

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Originally Posted by munch520

And I apologize that my thread was no doubt a contributing factor to your posting this topic :(

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I can honestly say that this somewhat errant missive was written with no particular thread or member in mind, and in fact, I'm only rarely even aware of who is/is not engaged in one of these battles until a call for intervention comes in. At that point, it almost doesn't matter who has contributed most significantly to the problem, as my only real objective is to calm the waters and hit the "reset" button. This very thread is really nothing more than one big deliberate forced reboot.

The truth is that even the biggest jerk on the site (whoever that might be -- we can always vote later ;) ) is probably a decent-enough dude if you were sitting at a table with him one-on-one. We just tend to deal with each other differently in this medium, and as we've discussed before, folks don't get or give the same benefit of the doubt here that they would in-person. Recognizing this, you would think that guys would learn how to recognize and avoid these conflicts. With apologies to Gershwin, it ain't necessarily so.

However we got here, and whoever has been involved, I'm no more interested in forced vacations, bans or ball-crushing than anyone else here. On the other hand, this sort of thing has to be stopped because (if you'll pardon me for being the one to make the observation) it is like a cancer in our community.

At the end of the day, no one really cares if you were right or wrong, if you agreed or if you disagreed, or whether you won or lost ... but they will definitely remember if you treated them badly, or got in their face about something. Most of you will understand this (word to the wise, and all that ...) and do your part to fix it. Others will instead end up walking funny for a while. Some will likely disappear altogether. This isn't exactly Burger King, but this is definitely one instance where you truly can "have it your way." ;)

AC

Chuck with each passing day you continue to remind us why we hold you in such high regard.

AC is without a doubt my favorite mod/admin on this site.

And that ain't no ass kissin' either. :p

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Originally Posted by Safetyhit

Chuck with each passing day you continue to remind us why we hold you in such high regard.

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You, of all people, should know that there is nothing even remotely special about me; however, if I do ever hit the big time and need an agent to handle my PR work, I know exactly who to call. ;)

As for the rest of this madness, I think that the point has been made, so I'm not going to beat this thread to death. Just do the right thing, and when there is any doubt whatsoever, do the thing that is even righter than that.

Easy day.

AC

Laconic, he ain't :D

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Originally Posted by Littlelebowski

Laconic, he ain't :D

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See? Name calling without the actual name calling. It's an art form. ;)

AC

P.S. LL, you suck. I mean, er, your position on this matter sucks. :D

What's with the obsession with other members' balls?

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Originally Posted by Army Chief

See? Name calling without the actual name calling. It's an art form. ;)

AC

P.S. LL, you suck. I mean, er, your position on this matter sucks. :D

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:D My favorite example of being laconic.

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One famous example comes from the time of the invasion of Philip II of Macedon. With key Greek city-states in submission, he turned his attention to Sparta and sent a message: "If I win this war, you will be slaves forever." In another version, Philip proclaims: "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city." According to both accounts, the Spartan ephors sent back a one word reply: "If". Subsequently both Philip and Alexander avoided Sparta entirely.

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Originally Posted by Koshinn

What's with the obsession with other members' balls?

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Quote:

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met·a·phor [met-uh-fawr, -fer] noun

1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.” Compare mixed metaphor, simile.

2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.

Origin: 1525–35; < Latin metaphora < Greek metaphorá a transfer, akin to metaphérein to transfer. See meta-, -phore

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Just seemed like the one inference to a whole new special kind of pain to which most here could relate in some fashion. ;)

AC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by munch520

ETA: I browse many media outlets and usually watch 2-3 (even CNN) to get my news. I like to get it from all biases. Given that, I enjoy I GD for getting news as well; primarily since we are all like-minded and the productive discussion that can ensue. That said, I don't think I'd be for nuking GD.

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Agreed. There is too much positive benefit to close GD. At the end of the day most of us can either agree or agree to disagree.

This thread brings to mind two old and extremely simple principles.

- Don't get your underwear in a bunch.
- Don't poke a sleeping bear.

I don't say that to be lecturing anybody but because I've had to learn those the hard way.

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Originally Posted by Army Chief

You, of all people, should know that there is nothing even remotely special about me; however, if I do ever hit the big time and need an agent to handle my PR work, I know exactly who to call. ;)

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While I know you're being complimentary I've not done anything but recognize, acknowledge and attempt to help someone uniquely special and good. Never imagined we'd actually meet and get to talk a while, was just icing on the cake.

Yes, I'd do your PR if so desired but wouldn't take a dime for it.

I like a man that takes a sojourn into the valley of death, stares down his demons and his mortality, and returns to the land of the living ... to commence crushing balls! :D

The bickering is bad ju-ju and I've been as guilty as the next guy. And I will voluntarily submit my balls for the requisite crushing should I step over the line. Let there be peace in the valley (and intelligent discourse/debate rather than invective).

Just an aside (in response to littlelebowski's earlier comment): I am one of those members who posts more to GD than other areas of the forum. It's not that I don't read other areas of the forum. It's just that in the technical areas I don't have a great deal of expertise. I learn from reading but don't necessarily have anything substantive to add to the discussion. I'm sure many members feel I don't have much of substance to offer in the GD either. But I do have opinions and I am interested in discussing topics of interest as well as posting up the occasional thread seeking advice or information from other members on a variety of non-firearms related topics. So there you go.

Montanadave, I think you add to GD.

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Originally Posted by Army Chief

I can speak only for myself here, as I'm not aware of any particularly recent staff discussion along those lines. Personally, if a guy only cares to populate GD, he's probably missing the whole point of this resource, but that (in and of itself) doesn't necessarily mean he's contributing to a problem, or that he should be rooted-out and discarded. The manner of conduct is still what we will tend to use as the GO/NO GO standard in those cases.


AC

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I happen to be one of those guys. I don't contribute a great deal to the tech forums because in 99% of the cases somebody else already has. There isn't much point in me following a Larry Vickers answer, it's not like I'm going to add some great insight regarding a firearm, it's history or applications that didn't just get covered in great detail.

There have only been a few instances where I had very specific and unique knowledge (such as my posts on the first HK semi imports) where I had a reason to post in other forums. But that has been pretty much accomplished.

For the most part, when it comes to the rest of the forum, I read answers more than I answer questions and usually there isn't a lot of room for debate on most subjects. There are times when people ask personal preference questions regarding guns, gear and applications but being from an older class of shooter I don't know what the cool kids are doing these days so I try not to weigh in with "How cool I think the Beatles are."

Also I enjoy discussing firearms, gear and applications but there is more to life. And I find some of those other discussions far more interesting even if we don't all have a similar consensus like we might have on firearm related topics.

Now there are probably thousands of forums where one can discuss politics, beliefs and philosophies of life. But generally they are largely populated by people who I hold little respect or regard for so I have no interest in their answers on those given subjects. I'd actually be more willing to entertain their sling suggestions.

This forum however is populated by people who have experiences, life styles and outlooks that I do respect. So even if we don't share exactly the same beliefs on everything, they are the only people who I'd consider comparing ideas such as politics, beliefs and philosophies of life with. So long as everyone remembers to not take it personal if somebody believes otherwise it shouldn't be a problem.

I the time I've been here I have found there is only one person I cannot have reasoned and logical discussions with so I simply put that person on ignore. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by THCDDM4

Thanks for holding INDIVIDUALS accountable for their actions instead of punishing the group.

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Agreed, it's a real pisser when one member decides to troll a thread.

You get one guy that decides his or her often narrowly on topic opinion needs to be woven towards several otherwise casual observers. Then when someone like AC or other admin takes the time they don't have in their schedule to browse a thread they see 5 people in a pissing match over who knows what then lock the thread.

Unfortunately... some of these threads are current events and I often like to hear the varied opinions on the subjects. These subject's often unfold over time as well... like Zimmerman v Martin or Boston Bomber.

So I would suggest use the "report post" feature so the admins can go direct to the person you see as trouble, make their decision, and we can all move on without a forum full of locked threads.

A forum troll's goal in life is to draw as many people into a thread of adversity with narrowly on topic and supportable comments in an effort to label those drawn in as wrong headed, disruptive and adversarial and as a bonus get a thread closed. Each time they succeed in this they use those results to support their further disruptive and luring behavior in other threads.

The real disagreements... the real RU f'n Nutz or Dude STFU comments usually start and end with a post or two naturally.

The Troll likes to fish all day.

Don't feed the Troll....

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Originally Posted by tb-av

You get one guy that decides his or her often narrowly on topic opinion needs to be woven towards several otherwise casual observers. Then when someone like AC or other admin takes the time they don't have in their schedule to browse a thread they see 5 people in a pissing match over who knows what then lock the thread.

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That's pretty much what happens, and to be perfectly honest about this, I always feel like a prick when I have to lock a thread. As you say, though, it is often hard for a mod to wade in to a heated debate and have any idea where it really started to go off of the rails, or who should bear the blame.

Part of that is because, with very few exceptions, I don't know -- or can't remember -- which member(s) have difficulty getting along with which other member(s). So, when you see Joey Bagadonutz show up and rain on your thread, and you already loathe the guy because you went toe-to-toe in a 2008 discussion about which way the free end of a roll of toilet paper should hang, well ... you're going to get spun-up in a hurry, whereas I don't know any of that history, and the whole thing just looks like a senseless brawl to me.

That's in large part why I'm asking folks to just clear the books, settle the accounts, and try to let go of whatever histories you might have with another member -- for whatever reason. If that is A Bridge Too Far, as SteyrAUG has pointed out, there is always the "ignore" button.

AC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Army Chief

That's in large part why I'm asking folks to just clear the books, settle the accounts, and try to let go of whatever histories you might have with another member -- for whatever reason. If that is A Bridge Too Far, as SteyrAUG has pointed out, there is always the "ignore" button.

AC

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Yep, there are plenty of people I disagree with. And I can go 8 or 9 pages disagreeing with them. But while I don't share all their views, I really don't have a problem with them.

Even the few that I seem to be at odds with 90% of the time are probably more like me than most of the people I come into contact with during the day. We simply don't agree on every subject under the sun.

I don't even strongly dislike the one person I have on ignore. I just couldn't have a reasonable discussion with that person so I stopped trying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Army Chief

Guys that would share their ammo or canteens with any of their fellow members here suddenly want to punch some of those same dudes in the nose because of some goofy position on a social, religious or political issue? That's truly not seeing the forest for the trees.

AC

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If there was a like button on this forum I would like this thread... :)

AC I think this is the problem with America, and yea it's here too, and I've contributed too so thank you for the warning. I agree let's make this place better. I'm trying to tone my snarkieness down and stay away from GD and into the real areas of the forum that brought me here in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln8-Y-fIbqM

Does this go for senior members? I've been treated in a way that is not so great buy some senior members of this site.

I swear, whenever I read one of Army Chief's posts I hear Liam Neeson's voice.

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Originally Posted by morbidbattlecry

Does this go for senior members? I've been treated in a way that is not so great buy some senior members of this site.

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Don't confuse a "senior" member with a "civil" member. ;)

Whatever happened to pointing/timeout or just plain banning the **** out of the people who don't get it?

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Originally Posted by An Undocumented Worker

Whatever happened to pointing/timeout or just plain banning the **** out of the people who don't get it?

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Godzilla ate the penalty box.

Anyone know where I can get a good deal on Jackalope food?

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Originally Posted by An Undocumented Worker

Whatever happened to pointing/timeout or just plain banning the **** out of the people who don't get it?

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I would think the mods don't have time to keep up with every thread and problem user or tiff like AC pointed out so rely on self policing to some point which can make a situation worse. Then there's the report post which I don't feel like being a snitch usually unless it's a really offensive or sick post. Ignoring instigators/trolls can work but some people keep on so I don't have as big of a problem reporting them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by An Undocumented Worker

Whatever happened to pointing/timeout or just plain banning the **** out of the people who don't get it?

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Not taking anything away from your point, but go to any of the more contentious threads from the past week, and tell us who should have been shown to the door. It always involves a judgment call, and it is one that is made more difficult by the fact that by the time we show up, there are usually four or five guys in the thick of the fight. Who started it? Who aggravated it? Who is just totally out of line, and who is gaming the whole process by posting things that could easily be viewed either way? How much is really too much?

Make no mistake: we will get a handle on this, but rather than firing indiscriminately into crowds, we are going to be looking for specific ignition sources. That's not always an easy thing to do, but people get understandably irritated when they are singled-out unfairly, and pretty much everyone is quick to protest their innocence or explain how they were clearly provoked.

Hence the larger problem ...

AC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Army Chief

Not taking anything away from your point, but go to any of the more contentious threads from the past week, and tell us who should have been shown to the door. It always involves a judgment call, and it is one that is made more difficult by the fact that by the time we show up, there are usually four or five guys in the thick of the fight. Who started it? Who aggravated it? Who is just totally out of line, and who is gaming the whole process by posting things that could easily be viewed either way? How much is really too much?

Make no mistake: we will get a handle on this, but rather than firing indiscriminately into crowds, we are going to be looking for specific ignition sources. That's not always an easy thing to do, but people get understandably irritated when they are singled-out unfairly, and pretty much everyone is quick to protest their innocence or explain how they were clearly provoked.

Hence the larger problem ...

AC

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I can understand the desire to get to the root cause of a flare up, but they don't happen without people throwing fuel on the fire. At another forum I frequent, they have a points system. 21 points and you go on vacation till enough points expire to get you under the limit. Swear filter dodges, personal attacks all have various point values, along with the much loved "tool" points for acting like a tool. Some points don't ever expire, such as those for racist comments which equal 9 points.

So it seems it would be much simpler to point all of those involved and let them selfregulate. The blatant repeat instigators will inturn end up on vacation or banned, while those who just typically fuel the fire will stop bringing so much fuel with em.

I fully understand this is your forum and want to run it as you see fit, but I'm just pointing out what works elsewhere.

That's why these are called "command decisions".....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by An Undocumented Worker

I can understand the desire to get to the root cause of a flare up, but they don't happen without people throwing fuel on the fire. At another forum I frequent, they have a points system. 21 points and you go on vacation till enough points expire to get you under the limit. Swear filter dodges, personal attacks all have various point values, along with the much loved "tool" points for acting like a tool. Some points don't ever expire, such as those for racist comments which equal 9 points.

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Actually, we do have a very similar -- if not identical -- infraction system installed here; I just (personally) prefer not to use it when a word of correction will suffice.

Unfortunately, we have now reached a point of no return for some.

AC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by An Undocumented Worker

I can understand the desire to get to the root cause of a flare up, but they don't happen without people throwing fuel on the fire. At another forum I frequent, they have a points system. 21 points and you go on vacation till enough points expire to get you under the limit. Swear filter dodges, personal attacks all have various point values, along with the much loved "tool" points for acting like a tool. Some points don't ever expire, such as those for racist comments which equal 9 points.

So it seems it would be much simpler to point all of those involved and let them selfregulate. The blatant repeat instigators will inturn end up on vacation or banned, while those who just typically fuel the fire will stop bringing so much fuel with em.

I fully understand this is your forum and want to run it as you see fit, but I'm just pointing out what works elsewhere.

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So on this other forum a person could call someone, say the N word twice and not get booted? Is it the DemocraticUnderground? Caught you.

No I think moderation here is pretty simple and effective. Some people just like to fight to their bitter end and that will most likely never change.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TriviaMonster

So on this other forum a person could call someone, say the N word twice and not get booted? Is it the DemocraticUnderground? Caught you.

No I think moderation here is pretty simple and effective. Some people just like to fight to their bitter end and that will most likely never change.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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If a person is willing to spout off racist swill twice, they'll f up and do it again and get the boot.


Lately it seems like it's been a bunch of children running around tearing down the house while the babysitter is sitting on the couch watching tv and yapping on the phone with her stoner boyfriend. The occasional idle yell of STFU to the kids goes unheard.

Chief says there are tools in the toolbox, albeit a bit rusty; it seems like it's time to shine em up.

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Originally Posted by An Undocumented Worker

If a person is willing to spout off racist swill twice, they'll f up and do it again and get the boot.


Lately it seems like it's been a bunch of children running around tearing down the house while the babysitter is sitting on the couch watching tv and yapping on the phone with her stoner boyfriend. The occasional idle yell of STFU to the kids goes unheard.

Chief says there are tools in the toolbox, albeit a bit rusty; it seems like it's time to shine em up.

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The report post link seems to be working. Maybe it was what helped clean up this thread.

What got this thread cleaned up was AC getting justifiably frustrated with some dippo deliberately introducing a religious Less Filling/Tastes Great idiocy where it clearly didn't belong.

Report Post is the most underutilized direct-redress method on the forum. It's available to EVERYBODY, and takes either exactly as much or LESS time than it does to try and play vigilante or prove how clever a rejoinder one can conjure up (and probably make matters worse in the process).

No member will ever get dinged for "overuse" of it. Given our numbers, and the fact that the staff DOES have jobs, poopy diapers, hobbies, etc. to see to, "overuse" is a preposterous idea.

However, using the Comments portion of Report Post as one's personal soapbox to give the staff a ration of shit for the crime of not being in 16 places at once....?

Yeah, the problem'll still get looked at, but that'll get you told to GFY, if not squashed. There's more than one of you that can testify that I'll zap your ass for making THAT stupid move, even of some other staffer saw to the item we were being alerted over. "...but I was just FRUSTRATED....!" Great, you can be additionally frustrated over having been temp-banned for mistaking Report Post for our quarterly employee performance review, Mr. Jack Wagon Who's Not Our Boss.

Just point stuff out to us. We'll do the analysis. Giggity.