75gr Gold Dot out of SBR and hunting use

I searched. There's one decent thread by WS6 about this load, but not much else.

The 75gr GD seems to have a velocity of ~2100 FPS out of a 10.5", with the 64gr being a bit faster. I'm wondering which would be the better choice between those two for an SBR? Is the 75gr too slow to expand at anything but in your face distances?

On that same note, if one were to also use this bullet for hunting (to consolidate ammo) if the 75gr or 64gr would be better or if a different bullet entirely would be substantially better.

ETA: I plugged some numbers in using what I've found on the internet (oh boy) Thanks to WS6 for doing lots of testing on GDHP loads.

75gr BC 0.4
Velocity out of 20" 2650 FPS
Velocity out of 10.5" 2100 FPS

64gr BC 0.277
Velocity out of 20" 2800 FPS
Velocity out of 10.5" 2500 FPS

For the SBR at 300 yards (long enough to get data, not too far to be meaningless):
64gr: 19.5" of drop; 1657fps; 390 ft-lbs
75gr: 26.1" of drop; 1573fps; 412 ft-lbs

For the 20" at 300 yards:
64gr: 14.3" of drop; 1893fps; 509 ft-lbs
75gr: 14.2" of drop; 2036fps; 690 ft-lbs

It seems as if the 75gr is a better SPR/hunting bullet, whereas the 64gr is better suited to SBR purposes due to the higher velocity (and likelihood to expand) at distance?

It's also remarkable that at 300 yards a 75gr GD at 2036 fps has more energy than a Barnes 110gr TAC-TX bullet fired from a 300BLK.

Interesting thread. Thanks I am trying to decide myself between the two rounds. Seriously though why can't they load this stuff at 556 pressure for more velocity?

75gr will buck wind better at distance. Not sure if the little difference in velocity at close ranges is going to matter as long as they both expand at the velocity on impact maybe more penetration but with your number the heavier 75gr still has more energy in both cases.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-really-matter

Have you thought about the new TAP SBR round?

PSA has Gold Dots (64 and 75gr daily deals going on today) for $10/box. For that money I will rock Gold Dots over TAP T2 at $25/20.

Hunting what? I certainly wouldn't shoot hogs or whitetail with that load.

Hogs and white tail. Why not? What would you use?

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Originally Posted by Auto-X Fil

Hunting what? I certainly wouldn't shoot hogs or whitetail with that load.

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Whitetail don't get nearly as big down south. .223 with good shot placement is more than sufficient. Never used on hog tho.

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Originally Posted by Eurodriver

Hogs and white tail. Why not? What would you use?

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Not a 10.5" SBR. The 75 is too slow to reliably expand, and both have a very short effective range. .223 is fine for whitetail, but a 10.5" gun is basically ".233 lite."

If you insist, I believe Black Hills 77 TMK would be the very best deer ammo from a 10.5" barrel. Keep the range to under 100 yards, though.

But why not bring your precision gun and get that TAP 75gr up to speed?

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Originally Posted by Auto-X Fil

Not a 10.5" SBR. The 75 is too slow to reliably expand, and both have a very short effective range. .223 is fine for whitetail, but a 10.5" gun is basically ".233 lite."

If you insist, I believe Black Hills 77 TMK would be the very best deer ammo from a 10.5" barrel. Keep the range to under 100 yards, though.

But why not bring your precision gun and get that TAP 75gr up to speed?

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I apologize I didn't make that clear in the OP.

The 20" is going to be used for hunting, and the 10.5 will never be used for hunting.

I was asking if the 64gr or 75gr would be better suited for hunting, and if it worked well for hunting would also suffice as a self defense round in an SBR.

However, it appears I have my answer unless I am missing something. The 75gr will be a better hunting round out of the 20" and the 64gr will be a better self defense round out of the 10.5" SBR

Oooooh, that makes all kinds of sense. Yes, you can totally consolidate, and the 75gr GD is a perfect round for those applications.

I say to use the 75gr round, assuming that if you're using a 10.5" gun for SD use, it's going to be pretty damn close. And heck, if they are more than 50yd away, just ice-picking them with a 69 SMK would be enough to seriously reduce their ability to do you harm at that distance. 75gr GDs are way better than that, even at low speed.

Honestly, a 75gr GD at 10.5" velocity is probably not a terrible whitetail round. It will expand at least somewhat out to 100+, and penetrate well. But, hunting and SD terminal performance are different things in my book. Sub-optimal hunting round lethality can EASILY be avoided because there's just no reason to make the kind of trades you would for SD. I get annoyed when I see people using stuff like 300BLK subsonic loads for deer and hogs, when they are clearly only doing so for the cool tactical image, not for valid hunting reasons. (Not implying you were saying that, but that's how I mis-read you, so that's where I was coming from). I don't want to open that old can of worms, but this isn't TOS, so I think we can agree to these facts:

• Even with 5.56 (as opposed to a pistol round), a CNS hit is the only way to actually drop someone instantly.
• Most people stop fighting when they realize they have been shot (for unclear and very debatable reasons, but the correlation is there.)
• Humans are somewhat soft targets compared to deer.
• If someone is shot and leaving the scene, how fast they bleed out and how much of a blood trail they leave are not a concern.
• Follow-up shots matter, so low recoil and high round count are huge assets in a gunfight. Not so much with hunting.

For all those reasons, I prefer to put a lot more snot behind a bullet headed towards a 150lb game animal vs. a human. I mean, if I could magically get a 168gr Ballistic Tip moving 3200fps from my 11.5" SBR, with the same size and recoil and ammo count as my 5.56, I'd take it. That round (300 WSM) puts a hole in a deer you can stick an arm through, and would certainly end a firefight real quick. But given all the other tradeoffs that are actually involved, I'm willing to trade WAY down on terminal performance vs. humans.

I haven't looked up the thresholds for each round, but judging by other similarly constructed rounds, TMK won't fragment as far downrange as GD will expand. It's (TMK) also NOT a hunting round unless you're only going for head/neck shots.

Euro, for a 10.5" or 11.5", I'd go for the 62/64 gr. version of GD and not look back. If you see Docs recommendations, with a good bonded round, you don't need the heavier bullets.

ETA: just saw the two updated posts above mine. Euro, I've hunted with 70gr TSX out of a 16", and while it does the job, I would limit it to 100yds (even though I have made a kill at 365 yds - but it was a headshot). I've since built a 308 for my hunting needs.

My recommendation above of which I would chose, still stands either way.

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Originally Posted by Auto-X Fil

Hunting what? I certainly wouldn't shoot hogs or whitetail with that load.

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I wouldn't have an issue using these on a hog. I use Hornady 75gr BTHP out of a 16" AR regularly to take feral hog from ~150yds up to smell distance. When I've had exits within that range its golf ball or slightly larger sized exit holes.

Thanks for the replies guys. It seems I can't go wrong with either load for either application, but I will for sure stick with 75gr for the 20" in a hunting role. I know DocGKR likes the 64gr GD but to my knowledge he has not tested (or has not revealed) the 75gr GD. He simply said "Coming soon" on Lightfighter. Almost 2 years ago.

I also agree with the bullets you posted, x-fil.

I know it's old but I want to add.

Usually some form of 75 or 77 otm is what I shoot pigs with, I'm using a 10.3 colt.
I was given two boxes of 75gr gold dot and asked to shoot a trapped pig.

While the first shot was "fatal" and "took the fight out of" a ~150lb boar. It took 6 to actually anchor him. The bullets were passing through and not causing damage.

The hpbt variety of heavy bullets has given me a very different result. I can see them(gold dot 75gr) being better vs intermediate barriers.

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

While the first shot was "fatal" and "took the fight out of" a ~150lb boar. It took 6 to actually anchor him. The bullets were passing through and not causing damage.

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I hope they perform better from a 16" barrel as it is the load I have chosen.

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Originally Posted by Disciple

I hope they perform better from a 16" barrel as it is the load I have chosen.

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They expand well out of any barrel length...

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

I know it's old but I want to add.

Usually some form of 75 or 77 otm is what I shoot pigs with, I'm using a 10.3 colt.
I was given two boxes of 75gr gold dot and asked to shoot a trapped pig.

While the first shot was "fatal" and "took the fight out of" a ~150lb boar. It took 6 to actually anchor him. The bullets were passing through and not causing damage.

The hpbt variety of heavy bullets has given me a very different result. I can see them(gold dot 75gr) being better vs intermediate barriers.

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Short hand terminal ballistics: SBR = less velocity = less and slower/later expansion = more penetration.

Interesting thread.

I am currently coyote hunting with a 12.5” Noveske and 75gr GDs.

I am considering using the same rifle and ammo combo for deer. It would be much easier than my heavy and big 6.5CM in thick brush.

How things stay the same…

Figured I'd add ~7yd was distance.

Ymmv but I don't think I'll buy gd or fusion 223/556

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

Figured I'd add ~7yd was distance.

Ymmv but I don't think I'll buy gd or fusion 223/556

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No, you just dont understand terminal ballistics, these bullets have an expansion floor of 1600 fps. By far the lowest out of the duty/defensive loads. This round is a better killer on game than TSX or GMX. I bet if you actually recovered the bullets you'll find they were fully expanded.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...to-come)/page2

They were passing through and hitting the dirt/grass behind him.

This is not a question of my understanding of ballistics. This is me saying I watched a pig take a few to the head and "get confused" and eat a few to the vitals before "giving up"

I didn't test em on gel, I killed something with em and didn't like the results. I have had excellent luck with the heavy bthp though.

They were barrier blind to my target

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

I didn't test em on gel, I killed something with em and didn't like the results. I have had excellent luck with the heavy bthp though.

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If you have a few left could you measure the velocity you get from that particular 10.3" barrel? And same for your preferred BTHP?

I'll see if any are left on my workbench. The fc262 and max 223 cfe loads(77gr smk) I can for sure check. I can say all 3 have /had very similar point @100yd.

Also for explanation sake, when I say confused I mean he went stiff and shaky started walking in circles leaking. He had obvious brain damage but didn't just go to sleep like my results from other similar weight bullets in the same gun.

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

I'll see if any are left on my workbench. The fc262 and max 223 cfe loads(77gr smk) I can for sure check. I can say all 3 have /had very similar point @100yd.

Also for explanation sake, when I say confused I mean he went stiff and shaky started walking in circles leaking. He had obvious brain damage but didn't just go to sleep like my results from other similar weight bullets in the same gun.

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This is a technical forum and thats not evidence. Maybe provide pics of the gutted animal showing the damage or at least recovered bullets if you are going to make claims. People read this forum and make purchasing decisions based on the information.

I'll get some data, but reading through the link you posted it seems I'm not the only one who didn't get the results they expected. I posted this because I know people read this forum to influence buying decisions.

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

They were passing through and hitting the dirt/grass behind him.

This is not a question of my understanding of ballistics. This is me saying I watched a pig take a few to the head and "get confused" and eat a few to the vitals before "giving up"

I didn't test em on gel, I killed something with em and didn't like the results. I have had excellent luck with the heavy bthp though.

They were barrier blind to my target

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I dont think we read the same thread. Also barrier blind is a property of the projectile, not something it does. Thats like saying "My bullet was dense to the target."

Barrier blind just means just the bullet performance doesn't degrade heavily if it passes through a barrier before striking the target.

QUOTE=WS6;2244034]Shot some boneless pork shoulder at 25 yards with my 16.1". Was about 10" of meat, backed by water jugs. This slug punched the meat (haha! Sorry...) and then went through 1 complete jug, and stopped in the second. I was able to shoot this setup twice, with identical results. I found only 1 or 2 specs of lead in the pork shoulder. I think that the earlier test I performed where I had thought the slug had fragmented, I must have hit the board.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2epllpx.jpg


Also, as to the expansion testing at reduced velocity, the 55 and 62gr loadings expand very well down to 15-1800fps. I do not think that the 75gr loading is THIS much of an exception. I reviewed some of the other test data that was generated for me by this source, and noted that the 70gr TSX I sent which was fired into gel at an impact velocity of almost 2300fps fps also failed to expand, which lends to my thoughts that it is possible that the consistency of the gel used, may not be 100% representative of what one should expect in all cases.[/QUOTE]


I am saying the bullet was dense to the target.

Perhaps it's behaving like a 160gr 6.5 soft point. Too stable to upset.

While I understand you wanting data I don't know why you want to dismiss a real world result. Tiny little entrance and exit wounds on a pigs body and head. Hardly any blood till I started dragging him.

Gel data is "lab testing" shooting stuff is a "practical test" wouldn't you agree?

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Originally Posted by Disciple

If you have a few left could you measure the velocity you get from that particular 10.3" barrel? And same for your preferred BTHP?

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No gd left but the ten shot average for the 77gr hp was 2220

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

No gd left but the ten shot average for the 77gr hp was 2220

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I appreciate the data point. Thank you for the info.

Seconded.

Wild-ass guess... Would the longer 75gr bullets tumble on impact? (That would be good, as I understand it.)


Berger's stability calculator says their own 73gr boattail is still stabilized as slow as 800fps (!), but that assumes a 7:1 twist.

With a 8:1 twist, they're only marginally stable at 1,700fps.

With a 9:1 twist, they're barely stable at 2,200fps...

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

QUOTE=WS6;2244034]Shot some boneless pork shoulder at 25 yards with my 16.1". Was about 10" of meat, backed by water jugs. This slug punched the meat (haha! Sorry...) and then went through 1 complete jug, and stopped in the second. I was able to shoot this setup twice, with identical results. I found only 1 or 2 specs of lead in the pork shoulder. I think that the earlier test I performed where I had thought the slug had fragmented, I must have hit the board.



Also, as to the expansion testing at reduced velocity, the 55 and 62gr loadings expand very well down to 15-1800fps. I do not think that the 75gr loading is THIS much of an exception. I reviewed some of the other test data that was generated for me by this source, and noted that the 70gr TSX I sent which was fired into gel at an impact velocity of almost 2300fps fps also failed to expand, which lends to my thoughts that it is possible that the consistency of the gel used, may not be 100% representative of what one should expect in all cases.

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Thank you for posting your data.

Here is another data point on live meat.

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Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger:


Not who you quoted, but I shot a doe at 50 last year just behind the shoulder with my 11.5. She was dead on her feet and made it maybe 20 yards. It’s a great bullet and I don’t have any reservations using out to distance or through bone (have done that as well).

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https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFile...pe-2131986.JPG

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Originally Posted by elia.jon1

QUOTE=WS6;2244034]

I am saying the bullet was dense to the target.

Perhaps it's behaving like a 160gr 6.5 soft point. Too stable to upset.

While I understand you wanting data I don't know why you want to dismiss a real world result. Tiny little entrance and exit wounds on a pigs body and head. Hardly any blood till I started dragging him.

Gel data is "lab testing" shooting stuff is a "practical test" wouldn't you agree?

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Originally Posted by Bimmer

Wild-ass guess... Would the longer 75gr bullets tumble on impact? (That would be good, as I understand it.)


Berger's stability calculator says their own 73gr boattail is still stabilized as slow as 800fps (!), but that assumes a 7:1 twist.

With a 8:1 twist, they're only marginally stable at 1,700fps.

With a 9:1 twist, they're barely stable at 2,200fps...

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GD are soft points, they dont "tumble" to do their job. They only require hydraulic pressure at the nose to expand. Either it hits with enough velocity to expand or not. Stability has nothing to do with it unless you are keyholing to begin with, then it doesnt matter if its a soft point or not.

Vicious is right stability isn't the issue. What we've been arguing is what's effective and his deer exit wound can be seen two ways, wasted energy and a wound that looks like that because of the bone or good penetration and what you expected.

My 10.3 and 11.5 don't scale with the 14.5 and 20. The shorty's start way behind and the difference the 11.5 has is more than you'd expect.

If I'm shooting something with a big old fast bullet say my 300 PRC I'm pretty good with shooting through and leaving a little energy on the table. A 225 at 3000 is a completely different critter than a 75 or 77 grain bullet at 2200 2300

I prefer my little bullet to kind of dump in the target on game. If I'm gunfighting you around cars I might want a different thing.

This guy would not use them out of an SBR for hunting.

How much did that Doe weigh my pig was around 200 lb.