It's official: HK416 and 417 on civilian market in late 2009

Well sorta...not liking some of the details...

http://hk-usa.com/rifles.html

http://hk-usa.com/images/products/mr...l/mr556_lg.jpg

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MR556 RIFLE

A direct descendent of the HK416, the MR556 is a semi-automatic rifle developed by Heckler & Koch as a premium level commercial/civilian firearm. Like the HK416, the MR556 is a major product improvement of conventional AR-type carbines and rifles.

Using the HK-proprietary gas piston system found on the HK416 and G36, the MR556 does not introduce propellant gases and carbon fouling back into the rifle's interior, making it the most reliable of any AR-type firearm.

The MR556 will be produced at Heckler & Koch's new manufacturing facility at Newington, New Hampshire from American and German made components. To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.

The MR556 uses many of the assemblies and accessories originally developed for the HK416 series arms including the HK free-floating fourquadrant rail system/handguard. This system allows all current accessories, sights, lights, and aimers used on M4/M16-type weapons to be fitted to the MR556. The HK rail system can be installed and removed without tools and returns to zero when reinstalled.

Like the famous HK416, the MR556 uses a barrel produced by Heckler & Koch's famous cold hammer forging process. The highest quality steel is used in this unique manufacturing process producing a barrel that provides superior accuracy for more than 20,000 rounds with minimal degradation of accuracy and muzzle velocity.

Projected availability of the MR556 in the USA is late 2009.

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http://hk-usa.com/images/products/mr...l/mr762_lg.jpg

http://hk-usa.com/images/products/mr...mr762_lg_5.jpg

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MR762 RIFLE

Like its 5.56 mm counterpart, the MR762 is a direct descendent of the HK416/417 series, only in a semi-automatic rifle configuration developed for civilian users.

Using the HK-proprietary operating system, the MR762 is gas operated and uses a piston and a solid operating “pusher” rod in place of the common gas tube normally employed in AR15/M16/M4-style weapons. Pioneered by Heckler & Koch in the G36, HK416, and HK417; this method virtually eliminates malfunctions common to direct impingement gas systems since hot carbon fouling and waste gases do not enter the receiver area. The MR762 stays cleaner and heat transfer to the bolt and bolt carrier, and wear and tear on critical components is drastically reduced. The service life of all parts is increased substantially.

The MR762 uses a barrel produced by Heckler & Koch's famous cold hammer forging process. This manufacturing process uses the highest quality steel, producing a barrel that ensures superior accuracy, even after firing 20,000 rounds.

The MR762 will be produced at Heckler & Koch's new manufacturing facility at Newington, New Hampshire from both American and German made components.

The MR762 uses many of the assemblies and accessories originally developed for the HK416/417 series including adjustable buttstocks, ergonomic pistol grips, mechanical sights, and the HK free-floating four quadrant rail system/handguard. This MIL-STD-1913 “Picatinny” type rail system allows all current accessories, sights, lights, and aimers used on M4/M16-type weapons to be fitted to the MR series. The HK rail system can be removed without special tools by the user and ensures 100% return to zero when reinstalled.

Ambidextrous operating controls are standard on the MR762, including the charging handle and an ambidextrous selector lever. The MR762 also uses the same 10- and 20-round translucent polymer box magazines made for the for the HK417.

Projected availability of the MR762 in the USA is late 2009.

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I really wish it was just a 16" barreled, semi-only 416. To be honest it somewhat reminds me of the changes Sig made to the 552 to bring it to the US market as the 556.

I guess what it boils down to is how the pricing compares to the SCAR. I'm willing to bet this weapon will see an MSRP of at least $2200. I'm also not at all crazy about having a proprietary upper/lower interface, but I guess they've got to do what they've got to do to stay compliant with the import laws.

The 417 looks OK.

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To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.

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:rolleyes: I guess this will be a good thing for TangoDown, what with their 416-specific ARC mags and all...but still...

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The MR762 also uses the same 10- and 20-round translucent polymer box magazines made for the for the HK417.

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Are these available? What do you think they'll run, $75 per?

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To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.

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Stupid.

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Originally Posted by decodeddiesel

I really wish it was just a 16" barreled, semi-only 416. To be honest it somewhat reminds me of the changes Sig made to the 552 to bring it to the US market as the 556.

I guess what it boils down to is how the pricing compares to the SCAR. I'm willing to bet this weapon will see an MSRP of at least $2200. I'm also not at all crazy about having a proprietary upper/lower interface, but I guess they've got to do what they've got to do to stay compliant with the import laws.

The 417 looks OK.

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What would possibly make you equate the MR556 with the completely disgusting mis-managment SIG has showed with the 556? HK doesnt half ass anything, ever.

The only point of concern here is MR556 uppers wont fit AR15 lowers. This means the cost of entry will always be high, and cant be halved. In return you are getting a complete HK gun every time, and this isnt exactly a terrible thing by any means, but it's also a bummer at the same time

It does show 30 round 416 mags in the accessories section as well. We shall see...On the upside LWRC and POF can rest easy in knowing they now have a niche market for piston uppers that the 800lbs HK gorilla wont be playing in. If anything, this move will probably result in them getting more business.

Ain't it nice to have choices? Never thought we'd see HK bring either one to the civilian market, much less both. Ah, 2009 is going to be a good year. SCAR, 416, Obama. OK, two out of three.... Just hope the last one does nothing regarding the first two. Not really to happy with the "proprietary"-ness of the HK, but having owned several HK weapons, I'm sure it will be an excellent carbine.

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The MR556 will be produced at Heckler & Koch's new manufacturing facility at Newington, New Hampshire from American and German made components. To conform to German export regulations, certain design changes made in the MR556 prevents the rifle's upper receiver from being used on other AR-style firearms.

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..
Have to ask myself why, too. If it's made in the USA why not just machine the receivers there too to avoid the laws? It's just a receiver, machine it to specs, doesn't matter where you make it.. Seems like a weak excuse to me.

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Projected availability of the MR556 in the USA is late 2009.

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Too late! ;) They might be 'obaminated' before that time..

Dear Heckler and Koch,

Thank you for the half-assed attempt at bringing such an interesting design to the U.S consumer market. Apparently you guys are asleep at the wheel and aren't paying attention to the desires of those who will purchase your stuff. You could have easily produced the weapon in the U.S thereby by-passing the stupid gun laws of the Vaterland but choose not to. Please keep those pieces of crap over there and send us a real H/K 416 that will allow us to put them on any other compatible AR lower. Thank you.

Good for them. Saves me from running into a bunch of 416 uppers on half-ass lowers. My problem with this whole thing isn't the upper/lower crap, but the late 2009 availability. This gun should have been on the commercial market here at least a year ago.

For me the biggest downer is the weight: 8.60 lbs is freaking heavy for a modern firearm. The only thing heavier that doesnt have a 20" barrel is the SIG 556 SWAT

Personally I'm not in the market for a MR556. I'd rather get a SCAR or stick with my XCR

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Originally Posted by variablebinary

Personally I'm not in the market for a MR556. I'd rather get a SCAR or stick with my XCR

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*nod*

I'm very mixed. I'm an HK guy...but I'm just not sold. Outside of the "It's an HK" factory I don't see what this offers me over my LMT Piston and I'm sure the HK will be a 50% premium over it. If I want a piston based gun on a proprietary lower I'll get a XCR. I get multi-caliber and quick barrel changes plus, I'm sure, better customer service. I've had no problem getting fast answers from Robinson this week when looking at an XCR.

Having said that...I'm sure if they are available in quantity enough to keep pricing "reasonable" I'll have one in the safe next to my 91 and 93. I really wish they'd do a US made USC. I sold my USC due to the compromises they made to import that gun. Give me a hicap version with a more comfortable grip and stock and I'm all over it. 9mm too, please.

I lugged around a 10.5" 416 for most of my tour in Iraq and was amazed at how heavy that carbine was. Easily the same weight as a 16" LMT rifle I've got at home in the safe. I was hoping they would knock the weight down myself, but never did weigh the 416 so I'm not sure what the difference is. I'll have to pick one up at SHOT to see if I guestimate the difference.

As for the lower receiver issue, I notice the German export law issue isn't mentioned in the 417 variant.

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Originally Posted by variablebinary

What would possibly make you equate the MR556 with the completely disgusting mis-managment SIG has showed with the 556?

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This...

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Originally Posted by Iraqgunz

Dear Heckler and Koch,

Thank you for the half-assed attempt at bringing such an interesting design to the U.S consumer market. Apparently you guys are asleep at the wheel and aren't paying attention to the desires of those who will purchase your stuff. You could have easily produced the weapon in the U.S thereby by-passing the stupid gun laws of the Vaterland but choose not to. Please keep those pieces of crap over there and send us a real H/K 416 that will allow us to put them on any other compatible AR lower. Thank you.

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Have a nice day.

Though I understand what you are saying my feelings are that someone who purchases a high quailty upper will not put one on a DPMS or Oly Arms lower. If they do then that is their dumb luck. But, if these lowers are truly being made in Germany and then down the road some type of ban were put in place those who bought the MR556 will be screwed if their lower ever gets damaged. To me it's just not worth it, but I am only one person.

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Originally Posted by 1SFG

Good for them. Saves me from running into a bunch of 416 uppers on half-ass lowers. My problem with this whole thing isn't the upper/lower crap, but the late 2009 availability. This gun should have been on the commercial market here at least a year ago.

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Originally Posted by NetJunkie

*nod*

Outside of the "It's an HK" factory I don't see what this offers me over my LMT Piston and I'm sure the HK will be a 50% premium over it. If I want a piston based gun on a proprietary lower I'll get a XCR.

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I'm right there with you...I really like my LMT Piston!!! If I want to go back to DI, it is just a barrel/BCG swap and there you have it!!! I'm sure there will be a 6.8 Piston in the future.

Gotta love LMT and all the other Piston manufactures here in the good ol' USA...they all will fit any AR lower!!!

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Originally Posted by joffe

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Have to ask myself why, too. If it's made in the USA why not just machine the receivers there too to avoid the laws? It's just a receiver, machine it to specs, doesn't matter where you make it.. Seems like a weak excuse to me.


Too late! ;) They might be 'obaminated' before that time..

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I think the crap SIG is currently rolling out of their factory is a good reason. Their pistols used to have world-class reliability when they were all made in Germany. Now that production split, they are trash.
Yeah, I owned a $1200 SIG Elite ST and speak from experience. All I can say is that SIG always shipped it back and forth promptly and on their dime. The fact that it wouldn't extract Ranger T and Speer GD kinda ruined it for me though. I sold it after it's second trip back to SIG. I just couldn't trust it. (The first trip was due to a broken take-down lever at 500 rounds). Lest you think my experience was isolated, go look at www.sigforum.com. All they do over there it seems is complain about their broken/mis-machined stuff.

It's nice to have options, but I'll pass. A quality DI AR rifle works just fine for me and meets my needs. An HK made AR is not likely to be any "better" in quality than a quality AR from a US company. It will probably just cost more. Knowing HK, a lot more.

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Originally Posted by 1SFG

As for the lower receiver issue, I notice the German export law issue isn't mentioned in the 417 variant.

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I'll bet this is because the 417 upper was never compatible with anything else, whereas the 416 uppers are drop-in replacements on a number of different AR lowers. I am definitely much more interested in the 417.

This is great news! I guess some folks won't be happy because they can't put their "pigtail" gas tubes in the gun. I really wanted to use my old Olympic Arms cast lower on my 416 upper.

Anyway, I am all about that 417. I can't believe they are making that too.

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Originally Posted by Greg Bell

This is great news! I guess some folks won't be happy because they can't put their "pigtail" gas tubes in the gun. I really wanted to use my old Olympic Arms cast lower on my 416 upper.

Anyway, I am all about that 417. I can't believe they are making that too.

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Or maybe it's because we already have well built lowers. What if I want just an upper to put on my lower that has a 2-stage trigger and UBR stock? Sure..I can add that to the MR556 (let's assume) but that's what, another $400? I'd rather buy an upper and not have to get the matching lower...and save on excise tax.

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Originally Posted by Greg Bell

This is great news! I guess some folks won't be happy because they can't put their "pigtail" gas tubes in the gun. I really wanted to use my old Olympic Arms cast lower on my 416 upper.

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That's a straw man argument. Retrofitting was a highly marketed feature of the 416. Removing it was a mistake by any measure.

This however has no bearing on the overall quality of the firearm. The cost of entry will also be far more prohibitive do to consumers being forced to purchase complete firearms instead of uppers. The SBR option is also dead now without a hacksaw.

Thanks HundK, but I'll keep my Recce....

Well, given what these are likely to cost, you can probably buy a German 416 upper!


I think the real danger with these rifles is not the pin, which I think is more likely to just be a matter of internet trivia for people who weren't going to buy the rifles anyway, but the cost. If the .223 rifle is more than 3k than they can forget it. I am a little more flexible on the 7.62 gun. HK needs to price the gun slightly less than the SCAR to be in the sweet-spot, IMHO.

hk continues to underwhelm.

To add to my 556 compairison...

Here's one observation, why are they going with the hair brained fixed rear, flip down front? Is there something I'm missing here? Did HK do this for a reason? Are they even going to offer these with the HK diopter fixed sights normally seen on the 416?

Also another WTF with the Tango down pistol grip. Why did the HK 416 pistol grip get trashed? Every account I've read on the 416 pistol grip stated it was one of the most ergonomic grips made, the same cannot be said of the tango down unit. I am glad they kept the 416 stock, but they should have retained all of the 416 furniture.

For that matter do we even know if one can swap out with the MR556 furniture with ones of their choice? Say a MIAD and UBR? It will be disappointing to say the least if you're stuck with the HK/Tango Down stuff. Likewise, I will be very curious to see how well P-mags work with this weapon. I really hope there's no insertion issues (ala S&W) or drop free issues. I hate to beat the mil-spec drum, but these are all worries once you start down the proprietary weapon pattern path.

I guess when it comes down to it, I'll keep my good old 14.5" LMT DI M4 carbine.

I suspect the 416 will be a huge sales success. I doubt the pin thing will be a deal-breaker for anyone who was seriously considering buying one.

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Originally Posted by ARin

hk continues to underwhelm.

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No kidding.

I am persuaded that the "German law" argument is little more than an incredibly disappointing attempt to justify a corporate production decision. HK could have delivered a semiautomatic 416 as advertised had they wanted to; instead, they offered us the world market MR223 with a flash suppressor. No thank you at half the price.

AC

i have a headache.

So, let me try to get this straight:

• We don't like the rifle because the lower receiver isn't an AR15 TDP standardized part?

Personally to me, I view this as a whole other rifle entirely. Much like how the SCAR is wholly different from an AR15. This is a different breed of rifle, and with it comes different parts. With that in mind, the lower not being compatible with my Bushmaster doesn't really phase me.

My only complaint is the price (which we know will be high), and the lackluster selection of barrel lengths.

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Originally Posted by Greg Bell

This is great news! I guess some folks won't be happy because they can't put their "pigtail" gas tubes in the gun. I really wanted to use my old Olympic Arms cast lower on my 416 upper.

Anyway, I am all about that 417. I can't believe they are making that too.

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Just to edjumacate you, my opposition to the differently-spec'd lower has to do with the fact that HK 416 mag wells do not play nice with PMAGS. There is nothing to indicate that HK has fixed this shortcoming with the new guns.

IF, however, I could ditch the HK lower for an LMT, Colt or other quality lower, I could then have the ability to run a wider selection of magazines (PMAGS, ARC mags, etc...) AND a quality piston upper.

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Originally Posted by KingsideRook

In the meantime, my LWRC works on all lowers - except the upcoming HK ;) - has 80% parts commonality with a DI AR15, weighs what an AR15 weighs, is available as a factory SBR, can be had with an adjustable gas system, doesn't use a proprietary raised rail height, and already has a hammer-forged barrel, Nitrocarburized. If HK wants to access the high-end piston rifle market, they needed to step their game UP, to be the best yet, not water it down. I suppose there will continue to be a market for the gray market Law Enforcement HK 416 uppers, and I may still get one if I ever see one closer to $2k than $4k...

Note - since I saw the accusation a lot when I lurked here, I am not in any way affiliated with LWRC, I just own one and like it, a lot.

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I dont think it's a full too little, too late, but for sure a 416/MR556 for sale in 2009 is nowhere near as exciting as a 416/MR556 being sold in 2007.

Especially with Next Gen rifles like the SCAR and XCR out now. The feature set of the MR556 is lacking in comparison. It's like releasing a compact disk walkman in the age of Ipods.

In addition, LWRC has stepped up in a big way technically and certainly offers the consumer more options at a fraction of the cost. I have no doubt many will be drawn to LWRC due to the MR556's inability to mate with AR15 lowers and price.

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Originally Posted by BushmasterFanBoy

So, let me try to get this straight:

• We don't like the rifle because the lower receiver isn't an AR15 TDP standardized part?

Personally to me, I view this as a whole other rifle entirely. Much like how the SCAR is wholly different from an AR15. This is a different breed of rifle, and with it comes different parts. With that in mind, the lower not being compatible with my Bushmaster doesn't really phase me.

My only complaint is the price (which we know will be high), and the lackluster selection of barrel lengths.

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They already have the 416 out there that is compatible with standard AR lowers. This isn't some completely different weapon like an XCR or SCAR; it could easily have the option available to be put on any AR lower but HK decided they didn't want that. It just seems strange for HK to go out of their way to avoid commonality (or maybe not, depending on your views of HK :rolleyes:).

don't know why they just can't make and sell the damn 416 uppers separately.

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Originally Posted by SHIVAN

Stupid.

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A big +1 on that! More stupid decisions by HK management. Why not manufacture the entire gun in the US so it can be compatible with AR upper/lowers? I guess another LWRC or LMT gas piston MRP will definitely be on my 2009 list. In a World of Compromise HK has done it again... No thanks Shitheads..

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Originally Posted by 30 cal slut

don't know why they just can't make and sell the damn 416 uppers separately.

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I am going to guess they know, like we know, that demand for uppers would be far greater than demand for complete rifles. The only way to force the market toward their product wholly was to make it a new gun on to itself

I dont think this as dreadful as some. Hell, I am always in the market for new carbines that arent AR15's, but it does make things more difficult who do not want, need or cant afford a complete gun.

Having the option for the upper only was already an ideal solution, and the change doesnt make a lot of sense. The real downside is factory SBR uppers and guns will probably never be an option without a hacksaw

Damnit, what a downer! I don't want a rifle that's imcompatiable with 95% of my mags!

That SCAR is looking better and better...

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Originally Posted by QuickStrike

Damnit, what a downer! I don't want a rifle that's imcompatiable with 95% of my mags!

That SCAR is looking better and better...

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IIRC, the SCAR has issues with Pmags right now. I understand Magpul is working on a fix.

I'd like a SCAR too, but at $6,000 for the first batch it might as well be a mythical unicorn.

OKAY, in any case, I am sure there is enough room out there for people who want LWRC and POF rifles instead of HK's and FNs. I have a German 416 so this is all academic for me. I will be picking up one of these rifles as soon as the initial frenzy is over. I will just suffer through not being able to put my Del-ton upper on my 416 lower. And in any case, I think Magpul will find it easier to fix their mags to run in the FN SCAR and HK 416 than HK and FN reengineering their guns around aftermarket mags.

What I really want is a 417. That will be a nice addition to the armory.

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Originally Posted by Palmguy

They already have the 416 out there that is compatible with standard AR lowers. This isn't some completely different weapon like an XCR or SCAR; it could easily have the option available to be put on any AR lower but HK decided they didn't want that. It just seems strange for HK to go out of their way to avoid commonality (or maybe not, depending on your views of HK :rolleyes:).

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I don't think they went out of their way to avoid parts commonality. Seems like if they had gone out of their way, the parts would be the same. I don't understand all of the import laws and the legal speak, so maybe it is possible they could have made this friendly with existing AR15 lowers. But from reading the HK press release it seems like that wasn't an easy option for them, so they took the easy way out and made a proprietary lower.

I just want to clarify again;

• The problem with the HK lower is that it doesn't use the piles of magazines we have stashed away?

• I can't use my existing AR15 lower to build a gun to my specs?

Personally I don't get mad that my shotgun doesn't use STANAG spec magazines. It also doesn't really bother me that my AK needs to be fed with different magazines. Would it be a nice perk to have? Yea, perhaps. But if this weapon is as good as some of the hype I have read then I would be willing to overlook this.

As for my "views" on HK? I buy something that is within my limited budget and if it works for me I like it. Every company has its hits and misses.