ECHO-2: My XM177E2 Clone build! (In Progress)

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09-19-15, 22:01
halo2304

ECHO-2: My XM177E2 Clone build! (In Progress)

So, after reading militarymoron's post, I decided I had to have my very own XM177E2 clone. I bought the Griffin Armament XM Linear Comp first since that's kind of the defining feature of the gun. (Is funny how some guns are like that, defined by a particular item.) Next I picked up an A1 upper. Since I have some sort of fascination with the teardrop forward assist, I chose to build an "E2" rather than a slick side GAU-5. The A1 upper came mostly stripped, just had the rear sight assembly. As you can see, the finish is pretty worn in spots. Since it's likely I'll end up using a standard A2 lower that will come black, I'll see about refinishing the upper and the lower and whatever else needs it in a Colt XM gray finish. Not sure which one yet.

Looking at the parts I own already, I have an A1 grip, some shiny black 6-hole skinny hand guards and, while not model correct, a Colt N1 stock. It'll do for now. I picked up the teardrop forward assist of a guy on GunBroker and an A1 ejection port door and RE locking ring with the spanner hole from a guy on another forum. I'll probably use modern parts for the rest. Right now, I'm trying to figure out what to do about a barrel. I'm planning to use a 12.5" barrel and P&W the Griffin linear comp to make it 16" and change OAL. I don't see much point in filing SBR paperwork just to save an inch or so in barrel length just to be more correct looking.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...pskwx4ketv.jpg
09-20-15, 02:53
elephant

looks good, I don't see why going with modern day internals would be a problem- it will save a ton of time trying to track down correct pieces. I am in the process of building a period correct 629/653 in special force configuration.
09-20-15, 06:02
halo2304

Got an example pic? I'm not too familiar with the retro guns.
09-20-15, 12:29
Renegade04

Good luck with the XM177E2 build. I would recommend getting a correct A1 lower from Nodak Spud. You would be much happier with the build if you did. Also, as far as the stock goes, Essential Arms has some nice reproduction aluminum CAR stocks that have a glossy powder-coat finish. Also, Nodak Spud has reproduction 2-position buffer tubes and early castle nuts. I built my XM177E2 a couple years ago.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psissrzvbg.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psgsoftpun.jpg

This is an original Colt vinyl acetate aluminum stock assembly.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pstfcggsie.jpg

BTW, here is a 653 build I did as well.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pssvtntvpz.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps31rohpgj.jpg
09-20-15, 21:20
elephant

wow, what a great collection of early Colt examples. That 653 looks original with that flat delta ring assembly. Good job on both rifles!
09-29-15, 01:22
elephant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade04

Good luck with the XM177E2 build. I would recommend getting a correct A1 lower from Nodak Spud. You would be much happier with the build if you did. Also, as far as the stock goes, Essential Arms has some nice reproduction aluminum CAR stocks that have a glossy powder-coat finish. Also, Nodak Spud has reproduction 2-position buffer tubes and early castle nuts. I built my XM177E2 a couple years ago.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pswcpd6ygh.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps2cwdg8vk.jpg

This is an original Colt vinyl acetate aluminum stock assembly.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pstfcggsie.jpg

BTW, here is a 653 build I did as well.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pswdihn7gs.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psqgbx3rvm.jpg

just out of curiosity, on your xm117e2, your barrel .625 with a .750 gas block? how long is your barrel?
09-29-15, 10:51
Renegade04

Quote:

Originally Posted by elephant

just out of curiosity, on your xm117e2, your barrel .625 with a .750 gas block? how long is your barrel?

You are correct about the barrel. Since I was not building a 100% correct version, I went with a Model 1 Sales lightweight 16" barrel and had it cut down to 12.75" and had the moderator and grenade ring installed. The moderator in pinned and welded. The OAL is about 16.25". I removed the bayonet lug myself and touched up the area.
10-06-15, 20:13
militarymoron

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo2304

I'm planning to use a 12.5" barrel and P&W the Griffin linear comp to make it 16" and change OAL.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

if you can find the daniel defense 12.5" LW barrel with front sight already attached, i'd go that route. but, i haven't seen any in stock for a while. or, buy a 16" LW and cut it down. good luck on your build! you're going to have a lot of fun with it, as i did mine.
10-07-15, 09:15
ClassIIIGunsmith

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade04

Good luck with the XM177E2 build. I would recommend getting a correct A1 lower from Nodak Spud. You would be much happier with the build if you did. Also, as far as the stock goes, Essential Arms has some nice reproduction aluminum CAR stocks that have a glossy powder-coat finish. Also, Nodak Spud has reproduction 2-position buffer tubes and early castle nuts. I built my XM177E2 a couple years ago.
This is an original Colt vinyl acetate aluminum stock assembly.
BTW, here is a 653 build I did as well.

Wish I had known about Essential Arms when I got my Aluminum stock from Tony's Customs LLC. I find that Vinyl Acetate will fall apart in hot humid air like in Georgia. So I got a anodized aluminum stock. And I'm planning on re anodizing it black with a glossy finish. Powder coats are nice until you scratch the surface and can't play touch up with a sharpie with the same color. Just putting that out there. OP your N1 stock will be great if you just want a similar look alike gun. My son did and I'm jealous that it looks kinda cool.Attachment 35342 Attachment 35343
10-07-15, 20:07
halo2304

Quote:

Originally Posted by militarymoron

if you can find the daniel defense 12.5" LW barrel with front sight already attached, i'd go that route. but, i haven't seen any in stock for a while. or, buy a 16" LW and cut it down. good luck on your build! you're going to have a lot of fun with it, as i did mine.

Searching for my options, I stumbled upon the Daniel Defense barrel you mentioned. AIM Surplus had them at one time, but no more. A member here had one for sale in the EE back in April, but it's been sold. Other than that, it would be a miracle to see one up for sale...at least, before I pin & weld the moderator to the barrel I eventually settle on. After I finish my upper, suddenly there'll be a dozen for sale.

I bought a 6720 upper off a guy with the intentions of chopping the barrel. Then it dawned on me, I have a 6520. I could simply "convert" it to a 6720 with the new upper and chop the barrel of my 6520. The foolishly sentimental part of me doesn't really want to do this because: Colt. Of course, AFTER I had bought the 6720 upper and while waiting for it's arrival, another gentleman put up for sale a 6520 barrel with everything but the gas tube and hand guards. Sadly, it was sold before I could scrounge funds to pick it up.

I feel this project is turning into something of a money pit. I've already bought two uppers. Because the first one was mostly stripped and in moderately battle worn condition, I decided to buy another one complete and in better condition. I also picked up some parts to finish the first one as well as a spanner-style nut for the receiver extension. I've also been looking for a more correct aluminum stock, original or copy. I found an original assembly from stock to end plate and with the spring and buffer, just needing a lower to mate with. The guy was asking $500. Too damn rich for my blood. I've seen a copy (Essential Arms) here and there, but they're all for the commercial tube. I don't know why, but I just throw up in my mouth a little at the thought of a commercial tube. I understand their place in the AR history, but I don't understand why they still exist. It seems like having the means to do it right, but using bailing wire and duct tape anyway.
I'll worry about it later.
Right now, I'm trying to figure out if the delta ring should be black or gray or if it should actually be flat and gray. I would like to be as correct as possible without going "full retard", price wise.
That's where I stand right now with this project. Hopefully some of it made sense. Now, if you'll excuse me, daddy needs a drink. :alcoholic:
10-08-15, 12:37
ClassIIIGunsmith

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo2304

Searching for my options, I stumbled upon the Daniel Defense barrel you mentioned. AIM Surplus had them at one time, but no more. A member here had one for sale in the EE back in April, but it's been sold. Other than that, it would be a miracle to see one up for sale...at least, before I pin & weld the moderator to the barrel I eventually settle on. After I finish my upper, suddenly there'll be a dozen for sale.

I bought a 6720 upper off a guy with the intentions of chopping the barrel. Then it dawned on me, I have a 6520. I could simply "convert" it to a 6720 with the new upper and chop the barrel of my 6520. The foolishly sentimental part of me doesn't really want to do this because: Colt. Of course, AFTER I had bought the 6720 upper and while waiting for it's arrival, another gentleman put up for sale a 6520 barrel with everything but the gas tube and hand guards. Sadly, it was sold before I could scrounge funds to pick it up.

I feel this project is turning into something of a money pit. I've already bought two uppers. Because the first one was mostly stripped and in moderately battle worn condition, I decided to buy another one complete and in better condition. I also picked up some parts to finish the first one as well as a spanner-style nut for the receiver extension. I've also been looking for a more correct aluminum stock, original or copy. I found an original assembly from stock to end plate and with the spring and buffer, just needing a lower to mate with. The guy was asking $500. Too damn rich for my blood. I've seen a copy (Essential Arms) here and there, but they're all for the commercial tube. I don't know why, but I just throw up in my mouth a little at the thought of a commercial tube. I understand their place in the AR history, but I don't understand why they still exist. It seems like having the means to do it right, but using bailing wire and duct tape anyway.
I'll worry about it later.
Right now, I'm trying to figure out if the delta ring should be black or gray or if it should actually be flat and gray. I would like to be as correct as possible without going "full retard", price wise.
That's where I stand right now with this project. Hopefully some of it made sense. Now, if you'll excuse me, daddy needs a drink. :alcoholic:

You know building retros are expensive because of the fact that most of the parts are no longer made. So when the parts dry up, the price for retros will increase which means that you are investing in more ways than just fun. Its cheaper and ok not having an exact replica with me because I'm a little bit of a penny pincher my self. But in general these retro projects are kinda money pits but definitely cheaper than the real ones that are more than +$25K but have more goodies.
10-08-15, 15:50
Renegade04

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo2304

Searching for my options, I stumbled upon the Daniel Defense barrel you mentioned. AIM Surplus had them at one time, but no more. A member here had one for sale in the EE back in April, but it's been sold. Other than that, it would be a miracle to see one up for sale...at least, before I pin & weld the moderator to the barrel I eventually settle on. After I finish my upper, suddenly there'll be a dozen for sale.

I bought a 6720 upper off a guy with the intentions of chopping the barrel. Then it dawned on me, I have a 6520. I could simply "convert" it to a 6720 with the new upper and chop the barrel of my 6520. The foolishly sentimental part of me doesn't really want to do this because: Colt. Of course, AFTER I had bought the 6720 upper and while waiting for it's arrival, another gentleman put up for sale a 6520 barrel with everything but the gas tube and hand guards. Sadly, it was sold before I could scrounge funds to pick it up.

I feel this project is turning into something of a money pit. I've already bought two uppers. Because the first one was mostly stripped and in moderately battle worn condition, I decided to buy another one complete and in better condition. I also picked up some parts to finish the first one as well as a spanner-style nut for the receiver extension. I've also been looking for a more correct aluminum stock, original or copy. I found an original assembly from stock to end plate and with the spring and buffer, just needing a lower to mate with. The guy was asking $500. Too damn rich for my blood. I've seen a copy (Essential Arms) here and there, but they're all for the commercial tube. I don't know why, but I just throw up in my mouth a little at the thought of a commercial tube. I understand their place in the AR history, but I don't understand why they still exist. It seems like having the means to do it right, but using bailing wire and duct tape anyway.
I'll worry about it later.
Right now, I'm trying to figure out if the delta ring should be black or gray or if it should actually be flat and gray. I would like to be as correct as possible without going "full retard", price wise.
That's where I stand right now with this project. Hopefully some of it made sense. Now, if you'll excuse me, daddy needs a drink. :alcoholic:

Essential Arms has two different aluminum stocks.
ITEM C1 /C2 - 4 POSITION CARBINE STOCK
COMPLETE (COMMERICAL TUBE)

ITEM C2 - 6 POSITION CARBINE STOCK COMPLETE
(MILITARY TUBE)

They sell the complete kits. With the XM177E2, you will need a 2-position buffer tube (repros from Nodak Spud) to go with Essential Arms' mil-spec stock. You may even want to call Essential Arms to see if you can just get the stock body. The XM177E2 uses a Delta ring, not the flat ring. They were mostly gray. Mine is gray.
10-09-15, 14:17
elephant

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClassIIIGunsmith

You know building retros are expensive because of the fact that most of the parts are no longer made. So when the parts dry up, the price for retros will increase which means that you are investing in more ways than just fun. Its cheaper and ok not having an exact replica with me because I'm a little bit of a penny pincher my self. But in general these retro projects are kinda money pits but definitely cheaper than the real ones that are more than +$25K but have more goodies.

that is so true. I wanted original as possible. No reproduction. I tracked down an Colt A1 style grip that was NOS and had to shell out $75, a original Colt flat delta ring assembly cost $50, original car stock with 2 position buffer tube was $150 and a original Colt A1 style (tear drop f/a) upper I bought for $375 and I am still shy a barrel, lower, BCG but I know when this is finished I will sleep better at nights.
10-09-15, 22:37
halo2304

My comment about this project being a 'money pit' was about how I've tied up money in parts I won't be using. I can and will eventually sell them, but in the meantime I don't really have the capital to buy other parts such as the stripped 6520 barrel that got away.
Speaking of barrels, anyone know a good source for a 12.5", 14.5" or 16" pencil barrel assembly with a carbine gas system that's also .625" at the gas port? I seems everyone does 11.5", .75" at the gas port or mid-length gas systems. I don't want to slouch on the barrel because once the moderator is pinned & welded, it'll be a bitch to swap it out. I'm still apprehensive about sacrificing my 6520 upper. I just like it the way it is despite the A2 upper receiver.
The butt stocks I'm seeing on the used market are as I said, expensive Colt stocks or the Essential Arms commercial stocks. It's a piece of the puzzle I can swap out later. Ess Arms' webiste leaves a little to be desired, IMHO, when they say to call for pricing. (Renegade, thanks for the info. I've seen E2 builds with gray deltas as well as flat rings.)

Sorry if I seem a little wishy-washy or scatter brained about this project. It seems to be my process when picking out parts to use. My AR9 pistol was the same way except I didn't talk much about it until after it was assembled. The retro parts I'm finding don't seem to be too much more expensive than modern parts, but then again, I'm not looking for New, In Wrapper items. The "experienced" parts add to the charm, IMO.
10-13-15, 22:21
militarymoron

i bought the colt 16" light weight barrel from brownells and had it cut down. out of stock at the moment though: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...prod71164.aspx

also, essential arms was great to deal with on the phone. i purchased just their aluminum stock body from them as i wanted to use a regular buffer tube with 6 positions.
02-24-16, 21:08
halo2304

[2/24/16 UPDATE]
I found a Daniel Defense 12.5" barrel, NIW and picked up a hand guard cap (free thanks to a friend) and a FSB with taper pins. Since I started this project, Brownells announced a partnership with NDS and will be offering A1 lowers as well as other retro parts. (Yay!) I still need to source a gray delta ring and a lock washer for the moderator. Even though it's going to be pinned & welded, I think it's a detail that is needed. I also need to find someone to mount the FSB. I know there's ADCO and Rainier, but not sure who else. As for pinning the moderator, I know a welder and have a drill press, so it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do myself if I'm careful. I might wait to pin the moderator on and test it on my pistol lower.

Here's what I have so far, minus some smaller parts.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...pslpzlohyy.jpg
02-25-16, 09:12
henschman

If you have a drill press, you can pin the gas block yourself too. The reamers aren't that expensive.
02-25-16, 09:50
Parachute Pants

Quality build so far. I'm looking forward to seeing it progress!
02-25-16, 10:01
halo2304

Quote:

Originally Posted by henschman

If you have a drill press, you can pin the gas block yourself too. The reamers aren't that expensive.

That may be, but it has the most chance of going wrong and being a difficult and expensive fix. For this project, I'll leave it to professionals.
08-03-16, 16:31
quino171

Any new updates?

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
08-04-16, 07:14
halo2304

I should be getting the barrel back today...hopefully. I'd like to assemble the upper this weekend.
I'll post more once I get the barrel back.
08-04-16, 19:13
GRA556

Still waiting on my tax stamp to come back from ATF for mine. I don't want to do ANYTHING until that stamp comes back ... or the denial. :jester:

Interesting they charged by credit card within 10 days of mailing the Form 1 off though ... ??? :confused:
08-04-16, 22:16
MountainRaven

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRA556

Still waiting on my tax stamp to come back from ATF for mine. I don't want to do ANYTHING until that stamp comes back ... or the denial. :jester:

Interesting they charged by credit card within 10 days of mailing the Form 1 off though ... ??? :confused:

The first thing they do is cash the check. Or charge the card, in your case. Always.
08-04-16, 22:20
GRA556

I did this with a Trust. How long does this usually take?
08-04-16, 22:34
notorious_ar15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRA556

I did this with a Trust. How long does this usually take?

You can check in the NFA forum, but I think the ATF are still working on applications submitted during Feb / March.
08-04-16, 23:28
GRA556

Thank you very much that gives me some sort of time figure to watch for with regards to the mail. :cool:
08-07-16, 20:12
halo2304

So, got my barrel Friday... I now know who not to do business with. I gave the work to a local gun smith because he's local and I like to support local businesses. Also, his shop rate seemed fairly reasonable and I had hopes it would be a quick turn around. All in all, it's not completely cringe worthy like some in the Gun Smith Hall of Shame, but it's certainly not worthy of praise. The only good thing I can say about it is the barrel length is ~16.25" measured from bolt face to muzzle.
As it was explained to me, they welded the grenade ring to the barrel and then welded the moderator to the ring and they did it this way because, and I quote, "by pounding the pin in, you run the risk of damaging the rifling in the barrel." :blink:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...psrjgxq7mc.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ps3mxjnv4t.jpg
As you can see, there's a slight gap between the grenade ring and the moderator.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...psejekryru.jpg

My plan now is to cut the tack welds, clean it up and pin and weld it myself, something I thought about doing myself to begin with. Based on what I can see, I would not be the least surprised if they just turned the barrel down so the ring and moderator just slipped on rather than thread on. I'll be absolutely pissed, but not surprised. If that's the case, there will be a perfect barrel candidate for a Colt 733 up for sale.
08-07-16, 20:24
GRA556

This is NOT good, of course unless you can live with it. I'd take him to small claims court and have him buy you a new barrel. Regardless, I'm sorry to hear the news.
08-07-16, 20:53
halo2304

Just cut and cracked the welds. Sure enough, they didn't actually thread the barrel. I'll post pics here and in the gun smithing thread when I calm down some.
08-07-16, 21:23
GRA556

WOW .... what kind of BS is that? I don't want to say too much more now because I know you're very righteously PISSED ... BUT ... I would find somebody with a REAL GOOD BORE LIGHT, and/or maybe a light you can snake down the bore and see if they in any way disturbed the rifling in the barrel. If so, you got a tort claim for sure because you can argue the fool ruined the barrel and created an unsafe condition. If nothing else, you can write a demand for refund and if he doesn't comply then take him to small claims court. This is absolutely ridiculous. For crying out loud, if he cannot do the job right then he should've been honest and said so initially and turned the job down.
08-07-16, 22:57
ouchonyee

Sorry that happened to you!

That 16.25" may still not be legal, I was under the impression it had to be blind pinned, silver soldered, or welded somehow more than a single tack.. Least of your concerns now, I know.

I'd be pissed too.. Take a DEEP breath.. No biggy, just try and get reimbursed before you start working on it, otherwise you'll be pissed while working on it, when you should be enjoying yourself! Give him hell, and good luck!
08-08-16, 06:28
Circle_10

Wow that sucks...
I like to give money to local businesses too but in some cases it's best to just send your stuff out to somebody with a known good reputation, rather than take a chance with a local unknown quantity. Hope you can get this straightened out.
08-09-16, 19:47
halo2304

Here's what it looked like after I snapped the tack welds and pulled the linear comp off. As you can see, they just machined the barrel down so the LC could slip over.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...psxecy0tec.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...psaroahxf7.jpg

Nice crown on the muzzle.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...pshdjjiutl.jpg

Here you can see the grenade ring with the remains of the tack welds. I have a new one coming from Griffin Armament.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...pssmtsp31w.jpg

I spent some time weighing my options and came up with a few possible solutions with my father who's an experienced welder and engineer.
A) Use some shim material to wedge between the threads and the muzzle.
B) Turn the muzzle down some more, bore out the threads on the LC, create a bushing to fit between them using a heat/shrink fit.
C) Braze on a layer of silica bronze, turn and thread.
D) Send it to John Thomas of Retro Arms Works so he can professionally "un-****" it. (Cost quoted: $60-$125)
E) Sell the barrel to someone in need of a 11.5" barrel or shorter for something like the Colt 733.

The solution we decided on was to lay down stripes of silica bronze using a TIG torch, turn it down in a lathe and then thread it so we can then pin & weld it.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...psnjzrz3mm.jpg

If this turns out poorly, I suppose I can always resort to option 'D' or 'E'.
08-09-16, 21:14
quino171

D......definitely D

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
08-09-16, 21:36
GRA556

"D" ... definitely go with that one.

This clown you took it to was obviously oblivious to the fact it was way over his head. Unfortunately he's they type of "gunsmith" the new and pathetic State Department regulations are trying to put out of business. Antics of his such as these only lend to their cause which of course runs contrary to our's.
08-10-16, 13:58
Renegade04

That gunsmith that did the work butchered it. The grenade ring is to slip over the muzzle, the muzzle device to be threaded onto the muzzle, the hole for the pin to be drilled, the pin inserted, and then either silver soldered or welded. The muzzle device and the grenade ring are not to be welded together. Any good gunsmith should know this. I just hope everything works out in the end.
01-24-17, 16:02
Bert762

If your plan A does not work, send it to John Thomas, his work is outstanding and turn around time is quick.
01-24-17, 20:34
halo2304

It's on the back burner for now. I've got other things I'm dealing with. The bronze threads didn't come out as well as I had hoped. I've got a Daniel Defense 12.5" LW barrel that I might use instead.
01-25-17, 05:39
Bert762

Sorry to hear that. Good luck and post pictures when you complete, it took me 2 years to get my xm completed. JT shaved my FSB and painted the furniture green for a 601 build and did all my barrel work on my xm: shortened a brownells barrel, threaded and attached the muzzle break. The work was outstanding. Again good luck.