9mm 124 +P v 147 v 300BLK 190gr

Hey experts,

Looking for some input on duty/carry loads. When I work OCONUS, I've always been issued something like a Speer GD 124 +P or the HST and Winchester Ranger equivalents. So I've always figured those rounds were safe bet for personal purchase here at home. But being home, I have more options that I have at work so my questions are:

1) In terms of 9mm, which performs better 124gr +P or 147gr? Does platform dictate (handgun v PCC)?

2) What would perform better ballistically in an urban environment: Some type of K sized PCC loaded with 124 +P or 147's or Sig Rattler with Hornady 190gr SUB-X?

I have a Sig Rattler that I just picked up some of the SUB-X for but I have no way of testing velocities or terminal performance. I'm wondering if an MPX(k) loaded with some type of 9mm would perform better. FYI, both running suppressed.

Thank for your time!

ETA: Platforms in use are the SIG MPX 4.5" (9mm), SIG Rattler 5.5" (300BLK), and Glock(s) (9mm). Rounds considered are Speer Gold Dot in 124 +P and 147 & Hornady SUB-X 190gr.

1. Both are great rounds. I would go with 147 for less recoil since the +p is not necessary for performance.

2. Why are you limiting 300blk to subs? Get the 300 and run 110gr black tips. Its a significant damage boost(lol) vs pistol calibers.

I haven't seen any testing to make me want to use subsonic 300 BLK. (Except for fun or varmints, and then it is indeed fun) Supersonic 300 BLK puts you into rifle terminal performance, even from PDW length barrels.

The heavier for caliber in service pistol loads tend to be a little more consistent on barriers and penetration. So 147gr in 9mm is my preference. It's also subsonic if sound is a concern.

Depends on platform.

Handgun: 147 are probably tops in consistency, but the 124+P are almost as good.

PCC: these seem to be best with the hottest loads possible, so NATO pressure 124 or 115 maximize the performance potential in this platform.

300BLK VSBR: supersonic expanding loads like the afore mentioned 110 black tips will trump the terminal performance and range of any 9mm load. The performance is literally 2x better.

In short barrels (like 8"-9") I'd take a supersonic, quality, 110gr HP 300BLK over a 5.56mm load, not even gonna bother to compare it to 9mm. I'm talking ranges out to maybe 200m of reasonable effectiveness with those barrel lengths.

You don't say what you are shooting, but some of the Euro pistols are designed to shoot 124 grain bullets and you'll most likely see the best reliability using the round it was designed to shoot. That being said, I own a bunch of Euro pistols and while I don't shoot 147gr a ton, I've never ran into a reliability issue. Just something to be aware of at least.

I usually hand load and reserve 147gr for subsonic applications and use 124gr HP's for self defense rounds. I like the higher velocity of the 124's to ensure reliable expansion.

YMMV IMBCFOS

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Originally Posted by MegademiC

1. Both are great rounds. I would go with 147 for less recoil since the +p is not necessary for performance.

2. Why are you limiting 300blk to subs? Get the 300 and run 110gr black tips. Its a significant damage boost(lol) vs pistol calibers.

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1) Good to know about 147gr v 124+P. What makes the +P not necessary?

2) I do have 110 VMAX on hand but for the situation I intend to use the Rattler, sound signature reduction was a plus if I could get good terminal ballistics out of a sub sonic round which the SUB-X is supposed to be exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Todd.K

I haven't seen any testing to make me want to use subsonic 300 BLK. (Except for fun or varmints, and then it is indeed fun) Supersonic 300 BLK puts you into rifle terminal performance, even from PDW length barrels.

The heavier for caliber in service pistol loads tend to be a little more consistent on barriers and penetration. So 147gr in 9mm is my preference. It's also subsonic if sound is a concern.

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Okay, so sounds like I should start shifting towards 147gr if ballistically it performs better out of a handgun and subsonic is a plus. Does the 9mm 147gr Gold Dot (and other defensive rounds) still perform well terminally once they are subsonic through a PCC with can?

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Originally Posted by Clint

Depends on platform.

Handgun: 147 are probably tops in consistency, but the 124+P are almost as good.

PCC: these seem to be best with the hottest loads possible, so NATO pressure 124 or 115 maximize the performance potential in this platform.

300BLK VSBR: supersonic expanding loads like the afore mentioned 110 black tips will trump the terminal performance and range of any 9mm load. The performance is literally 2x better.

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Are the 124's and 115's performing better out of a PCC due to increased velocity? Is it just giving you the ability to push that PCC further? To be honest for the situations I am looking at using these subguns, noise reduction would be a plus since I'm not really looking to push the envelop range wise on the rounds.

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

In short barrels (like 8"-9") I'd take a supersonic, quality, 110gr HP 300BLK over a 5.56mm load, not even gonna bother to compare it to 9mm. I'm talking ranges out to maybe 200m of reasonable effectiveness with those barrel lengths.

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My Rattler has a 5.5" barrel haha. It's a short one for sure. It's really intended to be a niche setup for use inside of house or PSD in an urban environment. I was originally thinking about using an MPX with 4.5" (suppressed) barrel shooting 124+P or 147 but that's where this post came from because I have some SUB-X on hand and I have a Rattler. So I was thinking maybe mo betta to run an expanding subsonic rifle round v a 124+P or 147 through a PCC; really looking out how they perform inside the 100.


APPRECIATE the responses dudes!

I am not a fan of a 5.5" barrel rifle in 300 blk using subsonic ammo.

I fail to see what it give you, other than a poor substitute for a PCC.

I have a B&T TP9, that also has a 5.5" barrel, but due to design it is even shorter than the Rattler. It has magazines that take up less storage space than your rifle magazines. I really like in concept the Leigh Defense round in 9mm a 65 grain bullet going at least 1800fps.

With a rifle you can get down so short that you lose what made a rifle a superior tool to begin with.

1. The +p is a little better for the 124gr, but not the 147, so you can skip the +p when using the 147gr.

2. For sd/hd, the benefits vs noise of supersonics is well worth the trade-off. I don’t understand why you find supersonic acceptable for 9mm, but not 300blk. If you are popping pests in the back yard, sure, go subsonic. But why limit terminal performance for no real benefit in a life/death situation? The silencer is going to make a huge difference even with supers.

If you want quiet + known terminal performance, PCC with 147gr would be my choice.

147gr is subsonic in 9mm because that is the max velocity at normal pressure. It's not downloaded to be subsonic. All the 147gr bullets are designed to function at that velocity, so you are not giving up any terminal performance.

124gr +P has a noticeably sharper recoil in a pistol for me, so I just stick to 147gr in all my 9mm. But I wouldn't feel any need to dump good quality 124gr if I had it.

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Originally Posted by HKGuns

You don't say what you are shooting, but some of the Euro pistols are designed to shoot 124 grain bullets and you'll most likely see the best reliability using the round it was designed to shoot. That being said, I own a bunch of Euro pistols and while I don't shoot 147gr a ton, I've never ran into a reliability issue. Just something to be aware of at least.

I usually hand load and reserve 147gr for subsonic applications and use 124gr HP's for self defense rounds. I like the higher velocity of the 124's to ensure reliable expansion.

YMMV IMBCFOS

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You're right, I forgot to include specific platforms.

SIG MPX 4.5" (9mm)
SIG Rattler 5.5" (300BLK)
GLOCK(s) (9mm)

You don't think 147's are as reliable with expansion as a 124 +P?

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Originally Posted by yoni

I am not a fan of a 5.5" barrel rifle in 300 blk using subsonic ammo.

I fail to see what it give you, other than a poor substitute for a PCC.

I have a B&T TP9, that also has a 5.5" barrel, but due to design it is even shorter than the Rattler. It has magazines that take up less storage space than your rifle magazines. I really like in concept the Leigh Defense round in 9mm a 65 grain bullet going at least 1800fps.

With a rifle you can get down so short that you lose what made a rifle a superior tool to begin with.

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If the 300blk subsonic round was in fact expanding at those low velocities, would it not be better to sling 190gr rifle rounds at a target v 147's? Honest question because I don't know.

I've always been a fan of the TP9. Never used one but if they had something like that accepting Glock mags, I'd be all over it haha. Doesn't B&T say not to use any suppressor other than their specific can with that system? Not opposed to that necessarily; just not sure if I want to commit to that system with a tax stamp.

If those expanding 190's were in fact performing better terminally compared to a 147 inside of those CQB distances; then popping that mag of 110VMAX in outside of that is no biggie.

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Originally Posted by MegademiC

1. The +p is a little better for the 124gr, but not the 147, so you can skip the +p when using the 147gr.

2. For sd/hd, the benefits vs noise of supersonics is well worth the trade-off. I don’t understand why you find supersonic acceptable for 9mm, but not 300blk. If you are popping pests in the back yard, sure, go subsonic. But why limit terminal performance for no real benefit in a life/death situation? The silencer is going to make a huge difference even with supers.

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I see what you're saying. Allow me to clarify, I'd only consider subsonic acceptable for 300blk if they were loads designed to expand at those low velocities like the SUB-X and Lehigh Defense.

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Originally Posted by Todd.K

If you want quiet + known terminal performance, PCC with 147gr would be my choice.

147gr is subsonic in 9mm because that is the max velocity at normal pressure. It's not downloaded to be subsonic. All the 147gr bullets are designed to function at that velocity, so you are not giving up any terminal performance.

124gr +P has a noticeably sharper recoil in a pistol for me, so I just stick to 147gr in all my 9mm. But I wouldn't feel any need to dump good quality 124gr if I had it.

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I appreciate that. This may seem like dumb question but i'm confused as to what the point of a 124 +P round is when everyone who has replied seems to essentialyl say there aren't really added benefits to the increase in felt recoil.

I don't think that given the same shot placement with a subsonic 190 grain 300blk V a 147 grain 9mm the person on the receiving end is going to know the difference.

I always come back to a very basic question, what is the mission?

We must let mission dictate what we carry and no emotions.

Covert urban mission, where an extremely long shot will be 100 meters. Then I tend to favor a small sized PCC i.e. MP5k, TP9, mini Uzi. Less muzzle blast, easier to carry spare mags due to smaller sized. I can carry 2 spare mags for PCC in my front pants pocket, where 1 mag for a rifle might not fit.

I was on the receiving end of an ambush one night, and we were trapped in the kill zone in a vehicle. No front, no back and no leaving the vehicle behind and getting out on foot. We had to suck it up and shoot out of the car we were in, the car gave us some protection against the stones, concrete blocks and molotov cocktails that were being thrown at us. I had a micro Uzi, which allowed me to move inside the car, where if I had brought a Colt commando that night I wouldn't be typing this. I went through either 14 or 17 32 round mags that night before a QRF got to us. I was on my next to last mag.

Regarding the round for 9mm, I currently have given into emotion and I am carrying 124 +P ammo.

Which as soon as I can get to the range I will bring 147 grain and get to know it again.

Why because the truth is, the ammo today due to the criteria of the FBI is all in the same room as far as performance. It is that close it has gone from being in the same ball park to now I really believe all handgun ammo is in the same room. It all performs less than 10% difference in terms of penetration and expansion. We used to have to carry 9mm ball, we made it work and we killed terrorist.

So softer shooting ammo means better shot to shot times and more accuracy. Things that will win pistol fights.

Our biggest problem with these subjects is our emotions.

It looks cool, it must be good.

I used to carry either a full sized M16 set up for sniping, NF scope, bipod, free floating rail, etc. Nobody would look at it nor me.

I would also carry at time a mini or micro Uzi, it would stop people in their tracks.

The small Uzi's were considered bad ass, oh sheeet, he must be something special, a killer of men.

But the Uzi's were good to about 125 meters, the rifle out to 800, to say nothing of the difference in power.

Pure emotions, on the part of people who had seen the different guns.

Mission is all that matters.

So let me show using the 2 guns above mission, even if I was off duty.

The Uzi's were used if I was going to be in a city, going to a party or what ever. If we went to a wedding at night I wanted something I could carry covert, because to leave it in the jeep would have cost me big time if it got stolen. So they went into a shoulder carry bag, think Euro trash style, when I sat down the strap would get wrapped around my ankle so I could never forget it.

My M16, I would take it if we were going on a family hike in the country, because I might need to reach out and touch someone. Which did happen one when I took my kids hiking.

So to close, remember mission dictates .

The 8"-9" 300 BLK is both an MP5SD and a MK18, with just a mag change from subs to super. It can also be a loud PDW with rifle terminal performance.

But without seeing some testing, I can't say I expect more than 9mm ball performance from subsonic 300 BLK.

The terminal performance of HDY 110 is good. The reliability in 5.56 mags is not so good. Take a loaded mag and smack it on the front a few times, some of the rounds will slide forward because the OAL is so short. It's probably fine for home defense, I've shot a bunch without any feeding problems on the range, but not for the field where gear is bounced around all day. I would choose blacktip for that.

124gr and other weights are made because no ammo company wants to loose out on an agency purchase that specifies something other than 147gr. Earlier HP designs expanded better at higher velocity, so some people still prefer that.

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Originally Posted by Todd.K

The 8"-9" 300 BLK is both an MP5SD and a MK18, with just a mag change from subs to super. It can also be a loud PDW with rifle terminal performance.

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This is the perfect use for the 300blk.

My problem is when you go into a smaller package than this. When you drop down to a 5" barrel, you are better off with a MP5k. mini Uzi, B&T TP9

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Originally Posted by Sugar

You're right, I forgot to include specific platforms.

SIG MPX 4.5" (9mm)
SIG Rattler 5.5" (300BLK)
GLOCK(s) (9mm)

You don't think 147's are as reliable with expansion as a 124 +P?




If the 300blk subsonic round was in fact expanding at those low velocities, would it not be better to sling 190gr rifle rounds at a target v 147's? Honest question because I don't know.

I've always been a fan of the TP9. Never used one but if they had something like that accepting Glock mags, I'd be all over it haha. Doesn't B&T say not to use any suppressor other than their specific can with that system? Not opposed to that necessarily; just not sure if I want to commit to that system with a tax stamp.

If those expanding 190's were in fact performing better terminally compared to a 147 inside of those CQB distances; then popping that mag of 110VMAX in outside of that is no biggie.




I see what you're saying. Allow me to clarify, I'd only consider subsonic acceptable for 300blk if they were loads designed to expand at those low velocities like the SUB-X and Lehigh Defense.




I appreciate that. This may seem like dumb question but i'm confused as to what the point of a 124 +P round is when everyone who has replied seems to essentialyl say there aren't really added benefits to the increase in felt recoil.

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Many of us suffer from being old, we remember old bullet technology, where velocity was king.
Today with todays technology we don't need to push to those velocities.

I want to look at the the Leigh defense 65grain round, because I think it might be something very special.

Other than this special round, today I think with my brain that the 124 grn or 147 grn is the better choice with neither being +P.

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Originally Posted by Sugar

I see what you're saying. Allow me to clarify, I'd only consider subsonic acceptable for 300blk if they were loads designed to expand at those low velocities like the SUB-X and Lehigh Defense.

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A pcc with 124gr is going to be similar in size and sound to a 300blk with supers, so the obvious choice would be the rifle which gives you rifle terminal performance.

The only benefits to 9mm would be mag/ammo simplicity, and size if you go to something with the mag in the grip, or a super short barrel, in which case you need to evaluate what your size requirements are.

Running subs in 300blk is basically an oversized pcc. There are some rounds that look to offer good 300blk subsonic performance, but its still closer to pistol ballistics, and a niche product. I also havent seen professonal tests of these rounds yet, but they definitely have decent potential, for what they are.

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Originally Posted by Todd.K

The 8"-9" 300 BLK is both an MP5SD and a MK18, with just a mag change from subs to super. It can also be a loud PDW with rifle terminal performance.

But without seeing some testing, I can't say I expect more than 9mm ball performance from subsonic 300 BLK.

The terminal performance of HDY 110 is good. The reliability in 5.56 mags is not so good. Take a loaded mag and smack it on the front a few times, some of the rounds will slide forward because the OAL is so short. It's probably fine for home defense, I've shot a bunch without any feeding problems on the range, but not for the field where gear is bounced around all day. I would choose blacktip for that.

124gr and other weights are made because no ammo company wants to loose out on an agency purchase that specifies something other than 147gr. Earlier HP designs expanded better at higher velocity, so some people still prefer that.

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1) Yeah, the 300 Blackout is kind of that jack of all trades master of none. Though all things equal, I'd rather have an 8"-9" 300BLK throwing quality 30 cal down rage than a MK18.

2) I'm in the same boat which is in part why I originally posted; I was hoping someone out here might have some real experience with SUB-X or even better, SUB-X through a Rattler and Sandman K.

3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo? Is "black tip" the barnes 110 vortx?

4) That makes sense. So the mentality of agencies only authorizing 124 +P type ammo comes from an outdated mindset? Todays 147's have no issues with expansion at lower velocities?

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Originally Posted by yoni

This is the perfect use for the 300blk.

My problem is when you go into a smaller package than this. When you drop down to a 5" barrel, you are better off with a MP5k. mini Uzi, B&T TP9

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Can you explain why you feel Sig Rattler 5.5" < MP5k, Mini Uzi, TP9 etc? FYI, Side by side, the Rattler is about the same size as the MP5k.

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Originally Posted by MegademiC

A pcc with 124gr is going to be similar in size and sound to a 300blk with supers, so the obvious choice would be the rifle which gives you rifle terminal performance.

The only benefits to 9mm would be mag/ammo simplicity, and size if you go to something with the mag in the grip, or a super short barrel, in which case you need to evaluate what your size requirements are.

Running subs in 300blk is basically an oversized pcc. There are some rounds that look to offer good 300blk subsonic performance, but its still closer to pistol ballistics, and a niche product. I also havent seen professonal tests of these rounds yet, but they definitely have decent potential, for what they are.

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Agreed. I think in most cases that I would opt to grab a sub gun, if all things were equal, i'd prefer to have a 5" gun spitting 30 cal rounds versus a 5" gun throwing nines.

I half agree with your last statement about 300blk subs are an oversided pcc. I've seen testing that shows 300blk subs defeating soft armor due to sectional density. That can be a consideration when deciding on platform and caliber.

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Originally Posted by Sugar

1) Yeah, the 300 Blackout is kind of that jack of all trades master of none. Though all things equal, I'd rather have an 8"-9" 300BLK throwing quality 30 cal down rage than a MK18.

2) I'm in the same boat which is in part why I originally posted; I was hoping someone out here might have some real experience with SUB-X or even better, SUB-X through a Rattler and Sandman K.

3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo? Is "black tip" the barnes 110 vortx?

4) That makes sense. So the mentality of agencies only authorizing 124 +P type ammo comes from an outdated mindset? Todays 147's have no issues with expansion at lower velocities?

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Yes the black tip is the Barnes 110 TTSX , or TAC-TX.

That is what I run in my 300blk truck gun.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Sugar

Can you explain why you feel Sig Rattler 5.5" < MP5k, Mini Uzi, TP9 etc? FYI, Side by side, the Rattler is about the same size as the MP5k.

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I think all you get with that length barrel and super 300blk rounds is a lot of blast and you really don't gain anything over a 9mm small sized PCC. Second just look at the size of the magazines, it will be easier to carry the 9mm mags over the 300 blk mags.

I think a 8 inch barreled rifle in 300 blk or 7.62x 39 is the shortes that you can really go. I also think 10.5-11.5 is the smallest in 5.56. Now people will point out to me rounds that do ok in even shorted length barrels in 5.56, I know they exist. I just don't think they are as good a tool.

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Originally Posted by Sugar

3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo?

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Remington planned a huge push of ammo loaded with .308 dia AK 123gr bullets with the new caliber rollout. I shot a ton of it square range without problems doing testing. Then Rob_S took it to a class and had feeding problems. I replicated it by smacking some mags around as I described above. Remington pulled the ammo for a redesigned longer bullet, causing an ammo shortage as 300 BLK guns were starting to ship.

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Originally Posted by yoni

... just look at the size of the magazines, it will be easier to carry the 9mm mags over the 300 blk mags.

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When looking at an ultra small PDW, concealment is the implied priority. The amount of ammo you can conceal is easy for most of us to overlook. Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience on it.

300BLK specific magazines are HIGHLY recommended.

We're not satisfied with the magazine feed performance of PMAG 556 or Lancer L5AWM mags with supers and especially not with subs.

USGI actually work very well with supers and acceptably with subs.

The PMAG 300B is excellent with all ammo we've tested.
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessori...obal_color=118

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Originally Posted by Sugar

3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo? Is "black tip" the barnes 110 vortx?

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This is true, but only for the top performing 9mm loads such as HST and Gold Dot.

For example, a 147 FMJ and a 124 FMJ both suck, while the HST versions are both great.

Bullet construction is critical for terminal performance of pistol and subsonic 300BLK projectiles.

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Originally Posted by Sugar

4) That makes sense. So the mentality of agencies only authorizing 124 +P type ammo comes from an outdated mindset? Todays 147's have no issues with expansion at lower velocities?

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Originally Posted by Clint

300BLK specific magazines are HIGHLY recommended.

We're not satisfied with the magazine feed performance of PMAG 556 or Lancer L5AWM mags with supers and especially not with subs.

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I arrived at the same conclusion on my own dime.

Sugar.
As most have already spoken of, most of the quality 9mm's will do a pretty good job of expanding at most useful distances for that platform...
I also have developed a respect for the .300 Blackout platform, which I have found useful beyond pistol engagement distances... As I'm sure you can attest the platform can help improve the shooter's accuracy potential over a pistol, and any number of sighting options can take that platform to distances beyond a pistol or sub-gun.
Since the state I live in allows us to shoot deer with the .300 Blackout, and with some available permits, some hunters have also been permitted to take deer off of a small Airport with Deer problems. With a suppressor and those Hornady expanding bullets, a friend has taken every deer he has shot at... The group never even moves when the one drops... ( Although this is done with Hand-loads the projectile is the same ) It would be helpful to have an idea what the velocity is from your 5.5", ( so as to know the threshold for them to expand)
I also loaded up some of the Lehigh Defense Subsonic maximum expansion ( 194 gr.) for a local P.D. that was doing some testing through windshield glass into baistic jel. ( they are currently adding this caliber to their patrol rifle program. The projectile opened up consistently and penetrated some 17-19" in their testing... This was done with a 10.5" barreled Ar platform, but the loads were developed for my 8.5" platform.... Out of my SBR they were loaded to run 1034fps, so I'm not sure what the velocity was from the test barreled 10.5' ...
This might be the determining factor for your applications... can you find a source to either produce a cartridge or test the available ones on the market to see if they will expand at velocities from your barrel...?
A very big positive, would be to have a suppressor, which could be a distinct advantage when you want to keep your signature reduced. ( if that is a concern )
Another positive the .300 brings to the party, is with a change of a magazine you can defeat a number of type's of body armor. ( again dependent on velocity of your chosen barrel length )
As some have mentioned, the Barnes Black tip 110 gr all copper round is right up there with the best, along side the Hornady offering 110 gr GMX load or Projectile... The Lehigh Defense 110 gr Controlled chaos might also be a consideration depending on how it performs from you barrel length. I push these from my 8.5" barrel at 2,234 very similar to the Hornady 110 gr GMX bullet... ( if I remember correctly the factory load from Hornady with the 110 gr GMX bullet was 100 fps slower from my barrel... This Lehigh Defense 110 gr Controlled Chaos was also tested in ballistic jell with unusual results... Unlike most projectiles, this one sheared off a number of petals within the first 3-4" traveling outward from the initial wound track, ( approximately 10-12" )potentially causing more damage than a single wound track... The base continued 22" ( more than sufficient ) ( aside note these are good for those thin people who often live in mountain regions since they shear off in the first several inches causing more damage than a single projectile can do )
There will always be unknown's, no magic bullets, but to have a platform you are very familiar with and under adverse conditions it is like an extension of your anatomy, it comes down to reading your AO and the those who move within it...

Of those, I would say performance will be like a service caliber pistol round.

The .300 will probably be more reliable from an AR than 9mm, with the option of supersonic loads.

In my opinion that's the big benefit of .300. Wanna fire suppressed subsonic bullets from a "normal" AR using normal shaped AR mags? .300.

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Originally Posted by 223to45

Yes the black tip is the Barnes 110 TTSX , or TAC-TX.

That is what I run in my 300blk truck gun.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Roger. I'll take a look. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by yoni

I think all you get with that length barrel and super 300blk rounds is a lot of blast and you really don't gain anything over a 9mm small sized PCC. Second just look at the size of the magazines, it will be easier to carry the 9mm mags over the 300 blk mags.

I think a 8 inch barreled rifle in 300 blk or 7.62x 39 is the shortes that you can really go. I also think 10.5-11.5 is the smallest in 5.56. Now people will point out to me rounds that do ok in even shorted length barrels in 5.56, I know they exist. I just don't think they are as good a tool.

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I think the Rattler, though it's only 5.5", is still in a different league when pushing duty quality supersonic 300BLK.

I think a trend we've seen over the years is that we can't get wrapped around the "too short" axle. 20 some years ago, it was a hard pitch getting some salty Marine to drop is 20" M16A4/A2 for a 14.5" M4A1. Shoot, I remember when I got out of the MIL back in '13 and I got my first 16" barreled AR because I felt like anything shorter would leave me limited down the road. 2020 and now I'm issued a 10.3" MK18. The Rattler is fairly new to the scene and from what I understand, it was born of a very niche requirement. Similar requirements to what I purchased it for. No arguement that 9mm mags would be easier to carry than 300blk but that isn't really part of my requirements for why I purchased the Rattler. Not that you didn't already touch on advancements in modern ammunition for shorter barrels...

Your response and input is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Todd.K

Remington planned a huge push of ammo loaded with .308 dia AK 123gr bullets with the new caliber rollout. I shot a ton of it square range without problems doing testing. Then Rob_S took it to a class and had feeding problems. I replicated it by smacking some mags around as I described above. Remington pulled the ammo for a redesigned longer bullet, causing an ammo shortage as 300 BLK guns were starting to ship.

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Hmmm.... super bummer dude haha. That means I might have to replace 50 PMAGs that I've accrued for dedicated 300BLK use. I've never had any issues but if it's a well documented issues, i'm sure it's only a matter of time under the right conditions.

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Originally Posted by Todd.K

When looking at an ultra small PDW, concealment is the implied priority. The amount of ammo you can conceal is easy for most of us to overlook. Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience on it.

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In some cases sure but for me, shorter is a big objective of mine with most of my setups. I like the ability to do ENOUGH with less. I'd trade concealment of my magazines for a rifle cartridge in a PDW package when operating in overt conditions for the simple fact that PDW offer mobility. I can work inside of a vehicle or tight door ways without having to give up control much easier with a Rattler + Sandman K than I can with a MK18 + can.

Where my original question comes into play is where I'm trying to figure out whether I opt for a sub gun in 147gr 9mm (since we've already determined 147 > 124 +P) or a Rattler in 300blk 190gr SUB-X. Both platforms are similar in size and the question is just which one is going to perform better ballistically.

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Originally Posted by Clint

300BLK specific magazines are HIGHLY recommended.

We're not satisfied with the magazine feed performance of PMAG 556 or Lancer L5AWM mags with supers and especially not with subs.

USGI actually work very well with supers and acceptably with subs.

The PMAG 300B is excellent with all ammo we've tested.
https://magpul.com/firearm-accessori...obal_color=118





This is true, but only for the top performing 9mm loads such as HST and Gold Dot.

For example, a 147 FMJ and a 124 FMJ both suck, while the HST versions are both great.

Bullet construction is critical for terminal performance of pistol and subsonic 300BLK projectiles.

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Like I was saying to Todd.K, this is a super bummer because I am heavily invested in windowed M3 PMAGs but I guess I need to look into some 300blk PMAGs if I'm serious about keeping 300blk as a duty/carry setup.

and FMJ doesn't go into my duty/carry mags. No question there.

I'm not convinced the 300 BLK mags are a magic bullet for the really short OAL loads. Like I said, smack the front a few times and see if any rounds slide forward. This will cause the whole stack to bind up.

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Originally Posted by Sierra276

Sugar.
As most have already spoken of, most of the quality 9mm's will do a pretty good job of expanding at most useful distances for that platform...
I also have developed a respect for the .300 Blackout platform, which I have found useful beyond pistol engagement distances... As I'm sure you can attest the platform can help improve the shooter's accuracy potential over a pistol, and any number of sighting options can take that platform to distances beyond a pistol or sub-gun.
Since the state I live in allows us to shoot deer with the .300 Blackout, and with some available permits, some hunters have also been permitted to take deer off of a small Airport with Deer problems. With a suppressor and those Hornady expanding bullets, a friend has taken every deer he has shot at... The group never even moves when the one drops... ( Although this is done with Hand-loads the projectile is the same ) It would be helpful to have an idea what the velocity is from your 5.5", ( so as to know the threshold for them to expand)
I also loaded up some of the Lehigh Defense Subsonic maximum expansion ( 194 gr.) for a local P.D. that was doing some testing through windshield glass into baistic jel. ( they are currently adding this caliber to their patrol rifle program. The projectile opened up consistently and penetrated some 17-19" in their testing... This was done with a 10.5" barreled Ar platform, but the loads were developed for my 8.5" platform.... Out of my SBR they were loaded to run 1034fps, so I'm not sure what the velocity was from the test barreled 10.5' ...
This might be the determining factor for your applications... can you find a source to either produce a cartridge or test the available ones on the market to see if they will expand at velocities from your barrel...?
A very big positive, would be to have a suppressor, which could be a distinct advantage when you want to keep your signature reduced. ( if that is a concern )
Another positive the .300 brings to the party, is with a change of a magazine you can defeat a number of type's of body armor. ( again dependent on velocity of your chosen barrel length )
As some have mentioned, the Barnes Black tip 110 gr all copper round is right up there with the best, along side the Hornady offering 110 gr GMX load or Projectile... The Lehigh Defense 110 gr Controlled chaos might also be a consideration depending on how it performs from you barrel length. I push these from my 8.5" barrel at 2,234 very similar to the Hornady 110 gr GMX bullet... ( if I remember correctly the factory load from Hornady with the 110 gr GMX bullet was 100 fps slower from my barrel... This Lehigh Defense 110 gr Controlled Chaos was also tested in ballistic jell with unusual results... Unlike most projectiles, this one sheared off a number of petals within the first 3-4" traveling outward from the initial wound track, ( approximately 10-12" )potentially causing more damage than a single wound track... The base continued 22" ( more than sufficient ) ( aside note these are good for those thin people who often live in mountain regions since they shear off in the first several inches causing more damage than a single projectile can do )
There will always be unknown's, no magic bullets, but to have a platform you are very familiar with and under adverse conditions it is like an extension of your anatomy, it comes down to reading your AO and the those who move within it...

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https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/s...er-conversion/

^this fellow seemed to get an average of 895fps with the SUB-X through his Rattler.

Definitely interested story from your buddy. What type of platform was your buddy dropping those deer with? inside 50 yards?

and yes, the ability to defeat body soft armor with a subsonic round is a plus for me when it comes to looking at a PDW sized 300blk setup; very niche work in a more close quarters environment.

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Originally Posted by Todd.K

I'm not convinced the 300 BLK mags are a magic bullet for the really short OAL loads. Like I said, smack the front a few times and see if any rounds slide forward. This will cause the whole stack to bind up.

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I just grabbed my Rattler. It has a 20rnd M3 PMAG loaded with 110 VMAX. I popped the mag out, dropped it from about 4 feet onto the carpet a few times. 1 round popped out (no biggie); no rounds slid forward however the #2 round misaligned over the 3rd round which cause the mag to not lock in the mag well when inserted. A quick press on that round and it seated properly and the mag locked in the mag well on the 2nd attempt. I cycled the action for 6 rounds and didn't have any jamming issues. Not exactly a field test but sitting here in my office with a screaming baby on a thursday night; it's all I can manage right now. I'll need to throw the damn thing around at the range next time I can get out there.

Sugar.
I contacted my friend that does a lot of hunting with the 300 Black out, and he advised that his load for taking deer is usually the Maker 190 or 200 grn expanding Sub-Sonic projectile, moving 1,000 fps.( he loads his own) out of his Noveske 8.5". So far to date he has taken them out to 150 yrds, with no pass through... I believe Maker sells ammunition as well as projectiles, but don't know what velocities they would be from your 5.5' barrel...
I just jumped on their web site, and thy advertise they can load these projectiles for your barrel length, and desired velocity, so this might be a good direction to take...:cool:
Another point to cover, I have used Magpul M3 mags for super as well as Subsonic cartridges... I remove the internals and use a file to take down the outer rib that would normally press in on the projectile... About 25-30 thousands on each side... this prevents those ribs from pushing longer projectiles toward the inside of the mag, away from the feed ramps...

I've seen FBI protocol tests at a few ballistics shoots with hornady 300 blk and was impressed with the performance. I have only seen data or gel tests with 8" min though so I cant say how it would perform with the rattler. I'm running an 8" B&T as it fits in a backpack but gives me rifle performance. I will say that theres places a backpack cant go and that its faster to run my 19 on my hip so realistically I'm most likely to shoot someone with my handgun while carrying a backpack with a great gun in it. If something truely unusual happens then it will be nice to have 80 rounds of 300 on tap though.

In the house I'm considering running the same gun with Hornadys 110grn TAP so I punch as few walls as possible. I'm willing to accept the tradeoff of it losing some penetration vs not smoking the wrong people. I have some subX but again I'll stick to supersonic currently. The biggest argument I can see for running subs in the house suppressed is no deafening the family to death which is a real concern.

This gun replaced a CZ scorpion intended for the same purpose but I realized for the around the same size I could get far better performance in the same package. If there was a more significant size difference (22"apc300 vs 16" scorpion pistol) I'd be convinced to reconsider the 9mm PCC.

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Originally Posted by Sierra276

Sugar.
I contacted my friend that does a lot of hunting with the 300 Black out, and he advised that his load for taking deer is usually the Maker 190 or 200 grn expanding Sub-Sonic projectile, moving 1,000 fps.( he loads his own) out of his Noveske 8.5". So far to date he has taken them out to 150 yrds, with no pass through... I believe Maker sells ammunition as well as projectiles, but don't know what velocities they would be from your 5.5' barrel...
I just jumped on their web site, and thy advertise they can load these projectiles for your barrel length, and desired velocity, so this might be a good direction to take...:cool:
Another point to cover, I have used Magpul M3 mags for super as well as Subsonic cartridges... I remove the internals and use a file to take down the outer rib that would normally press in on the projectile... About 25-30 thousands on each side... this prevents those ribs from pushing longer projectiles toward the inside of the mag, away from the feed ramps...

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Thanks for looking into that.

If the magazine issue is a real concern, i'll probably just grab some lancers. It's a bit of a bummer because part of the 300blk draw for me was using the same 223/556 mags.

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Originally Posted by anubismp

I've seen FBI protocol tests at a few ballistics shoots with hornady 300 blk and was impressed with the performance. I have only seen data or gel tests with 8" min though so I cant say how it would perform with the rattler. I'm running an 8" B&T as it fits in a backpack but gives me rifle performance. I will say that theres places a backpack cant go and that its faster to run my 19 on my hip so realistically I'm most likely to shoot someone with my handgun while carrying a backpack with a great gun in it. If something truely unusual happens then it will be nice to have 80 rounds of 300 on tap though.

In the house I'm considering running the same gun with Hornadys 110grn TAP so I punch as few walls as possible. I'm willing to accept the tradeoff of it losing some penetration vs not smoking the wrong people. I have some subX but again I'll stick to supersonic currently. The biggest argument I can see for running subs in the house suppressed is no deafening the family to death which is a real concern.

This gun replaced a CZ scorpion intended for the same purpose but I realized for the around the same size I could get far better performance in the same package. If there was a more significant size difference (22"apc300 vs 16" scorpion pistol) I'd be convinced to reconsider the 9mm PCC.

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With such a unique weapon system, I'm going to have to track someone down with the same setup who's done the testing. I reached out the Hornady but they couldn't offer any input into how the 110 VMAX or 190 SUBX would work out of the Sig Rattler 5.5"