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If you already had a SHTF rifle with an ACOG and were building another rifle, and you had the luxury of either, would you put another ACOG on a rifle or go with the Vortex Razor HD Gen ii? If you chose the Vortex, which reticle? MRAD or the JM reticle?
Razor with MRAD. I did something similar to this a couple of years ago for a target rifle and have had no regrets. I like keeping each rifle somewhat unique. As long as the 1-6 fits your use for the rifle you built, I'd say go for it.
Why the Razor Gen II MRAD over the MOA or the JM versions?
For the same price you can get the trijicon accupower 1-8. Get the red it's daylight bright, a hair lighter than the razor, great glass, both CQB style 1x but precision 8x with MOA or MIL marks. I love mine, I ran mine for the first time in a 3gun match and I love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang4Buck
MOA vs MRAD is personal preference, use whichever you're used to. The JM reticles use holdovers for specific loads. Nothing wrong with that either, but the holdovers may not be quite exact for your specific loads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Trash
We get it, you love your Trijicon Accupower 1-8. :D I like mine, too. I also own the Razor 1-6, and the Trijicon illumination is a joke by comparison. The Razor is true daylight bright, like using an aimpoint only crisper, while the Accupower 1-8 washes out on bright surfaces.Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplorinInTheWoods
The red is for sure daylight bright man, not sure if you have bad eyes or what. The razor dot is just too small for me, the glass is clear on the razor but it's just so small that it's not easy to pick up. I got buddies that I shoot 3gun with and all of them are vortex guys and each one now is wanting to ditch their razor for the accupower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippers
No, no eye issues here. I have the red 1-8, and just like the accupower 1-4, as soon as I look at a bright surface through it in full daylight, the reticle goes black. There's a *hint* of red, but it's barely noticeable. It's not capable of retina searing, blooming brightness like an aimpoint or razor on the highest setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplorinInTheWoods
Maximum brightness on the accupower is equivalent to maybe 4 or 5 on the razor 1-6. The razor also doesn't wash out on bright surfaces because it's not relying on a reflection off the etched reticle to get the illumination to your eye.
Everyone has their preferences, and I haven't said anything about the reticle/dot size on either scope. If you don't like other offerings, it doesn't matter to me. I just think it's wrong to keep towing the "accupower 1-8 is daylight bright" line when it clearly is not. Especially compared to the illumination in several other 1-x scopes out there.
I agree with this. I have talked with some good dudes I trust in the industry, that have also had hands on with the 1-8 red mil accupower and echo Slippers findings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippers
So far no one is suggesting another ACOG, which is interesting. I'm leaning towards the Razor MRAD at this point.
I think a lot of us have trouble recommending an ACOG over a variable power scope these days because there are so many good or even great scopes in the same price range. If you have a clone build in mind, or you used an ACOG in the service, that's a whole different story. But for all-around use a 1-x scope is a great setup. I do love the ACOG TA33 because it's compact, as light as some red dot sights, and has excellent eye relief. If you can live with 3x, it's a great optic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang4Buck
A lot of the ACOG offerings make it tough to use a rear sight unless you run the stock really short because the eye relief is not great (or get an adapter to raise it over the rear sight and extend it rearward further). And the prices of ACOGs have steadily climbed over the years.
As a Razor MRAD owner I've been very happy with the scope, besides the weight. The glass clarity, illumination, and eye box are great. Around the same price/weight is also the previously mentioned Accupower 1-8, if you don't mind the illumination (but the reticle is very usable without illumination so it's not an issue in my opinion).
What is your barrel length and load?
i ran the JM for a while and i got it to work with a 75g load out of my 16inch gun, lined right up and worked like a champ, but i did have to run a 200yard, i have always ran a 100yard in all my scopes prior to this.
but the reticle didn't line up the same on other guns or loads, it was close enough though
i now have the mil based Kahles 1-6, and it works for any load and gun, much more precise but slower than the JM
Me me if you are going to run a similar load as to what the JM is designed for then get it, if not get a moa or mil based version
will be on 16 inch and usually shooting XM193 Federal, or some very similar 55 grain load. I'm leaning towards mil version for reasons you stated. BDC is only good for 1 specific load.Quote:
Originally Posted by bates
BDC are great for military because we shoot the same ammo out of the same length barrel so it works but if you're switching brands or have a different barrel length the bdc will be close but not perfect. Since we went to the m855a1 the Scotsman are slightly off now once you get out to 300. Plus the m855a1 is wearing guns out quicker now
I have the Razor with the JM-1, and it is the reticle that I would recommend.
You might have more discrete hash marks in the MRAD reticle, but they aren't likely to line up at an exact distance/round number either.
I find all the additional stadia lines to be just clutter. The JM-1 is almost perfect for a 1-6x scope. I have found it to be quite easy to get the hold overs to line up with any load that I have used. If your ammo is a little slower than what the reticle is designed for, you might zero at 225 instead of exactly at 200. The difference is less than 2 inches at all distances from 200 yards on in.
So you have your scope setup, target is at 400, hold dead on with your 400 yard stadia. 430? Put the 400 yard stadia on top of the target. 450? Bracket the target. All the extra lines in the MRAD reticle are just clutter that you have to count your way through. I might be biased because it is the version that I have, so I think I'm right. I've had no problem getting to 550 on 10 inch steel plates from an improvised rest off the top of a truck.
Here is the JM-1 with real world chrono data from my rifle and factory Swiss Geco 55gr ammo:
Zeroed at 200 yards
3045 FPS
.243 BC
80 degree F
http://i.imgur.com/23naVI1.png
It doesn't get much better than that.
I wouldn't mind a full value wind line at each of the distance stadia......
plugged in the MRAD reticle with the exam same ballistics as the data in the JM-1 reticle above out of curiosity:
https://i.imgur.com/H40H4OCg.png
As a former owner of a TA33. The TA33 is remarkably light for what it does. And it is an excellent optic. But it isn't in the same league optically as the Razor.
That isn't to say that the Trijicon has poor glass. I was quit impressed with mine. And for man sized targets to 500 ish yards it is EXCELLENT for the weight.
The magnification was too low and the reticle stadia were too thick for ten inch plates out to 500+ And the reticle bloom issue on an ACOG was annoying, although easy to fix. The big chevron is too course for targets on the small side. Shooting at something small at 150-to 200 was problematic with a chevron ACOG.
You already have an ACOG. Buy the Razor. You will be happy with either reticle. I think the JM-1 is superb because of the simplicity.
I have 3 1-6 Razors and if I owned an ACOG I would sell it and buy a 4th. I have both JM and MRAD reticles.
T
ACOGs are great and all, but it's really hard to beat a variable optic. I went through this same decision many moons ago and decided on a 1-4x Vortex Viper with LaRue mount. I paid like $700 for both combined which was still ~ $550 less than the ACOG I was looking at.
The variables offer so much versatility; I ended up putting a 2.5-10x on my 308.
Which of the two reticles do you prefer?Quote:
Originally Posted by tat2
I'm wondering the same thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Beat Trash
As far as which reticle I prefer..... they have different applications. For 3 Gun applications with 77gr SMK's I feel the JM reticle is the way to go. I only use that one bullet and it's a cleaner reticle that is very intuitive. First round hits at 500yds are not a problem.
The MRAD is what I bought later when I started to get into shooting longer ranges with higher power scopes. Everyone talks in mils. It is not as intuitive to quickly throw a round down range, but it's nice to have constant mil spacing for some shots. Sometimes with the JM you have to hold off in space between lines and with the MRAD the next mil mark can work and get you a better hold.
T
SuperSet has some really well done videos addressing this topic:
1. ACOG with MRDS compared to LPV scope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzYyXlHIVlo
(EDIT: Apparently only one video per post so I'll split this up into three posts…)
2. Good review on the Vortex 1-6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jilqXipJFm0
3. Good comparison of some 1-6 LPVs in different price ranges:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHzvI6zu7Mo
I have a Razor JM-1 on a Colt 6920 that had its barrel replaced with a Noveske 16" Recon SS barrel.
I have it zeroed at 200 yards with Black Hills MK262.
The reticle is dead on.
If you run the ballistic calculator on Vortex's website with MK262 and the velocity (2650-2675 fps) out of a 16" barrel, you will discover the JM-1 reticle is dead on for this setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyCrumb
Good video. But I was scratching my head when he was talking about the dot being hard to pick up. The Razor is nuclear bright and if you can't see it, there is something wrong with your eyes or your battery is going dead.
I actually have an eye for a TA01NSN locally for $894 new.
Get the Razor. I have gotten rid of all my ACOGS. Fixed power is not my thing.
Pat
Which reticle are you using on your Razor's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo
I sold my razor have Swarovski 1 to 6 and a 1 to 8 as well as two PA 1 to 8s. All of them run mill based reticles which I prefer to BDCs
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Thanks
I with Vortex made this optic in BLACK..the color is faggy.
I wanna buy a razor as well, but waiting for gen 3 to come out
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Is there actually a gen 3 in the works?Quote:
Originally Posted by kukworld
No, Vortex has decided to only do 1-8 scopes in their budget lines. No demand or desire for a high-end 1-8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Trash
:P
I kid, but seriously, I'm not the only one who thinks they did this backwards, but you can bet Vortex isn't going to NOT do a nice 1-8.
I had the same issue with the accupower 1-4 and it was really irritating. I grew up using acogs on my service weapon so was disappointed with the washed out reticle, expecting a battery powered to be bright. Handling the razor, it really has the most usable daylight illumination, but I am hopeful and also wary of the new trijicon 1-8. I haven't shot with it but looking through one I was impressed at how much it seemed to be, but it was hefty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippers
I hope there is, since razor came out 2012 I believe...so they should have update razor line, we shall see :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Trash
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