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I've seen there are a few manufacturers who are successfully producing 223 subs that don't squib and actually seem to cycle. I was wondering how they are doing it, and how a home loader might be able to replicate it. Are they using some kind of filler to take up the extra case volume, or are they using a powder that just takes up that much space?
I can't imagine a more pointless reloading endeavor.
Maybe I want to shoot my Mk18 without hearing pro when practicing at close range. Maybe I might like to do some night shooting with the nods without the neighbors calling in noise complaints from two sections over in the next county.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViniVidivici
I put some thought into this a while back, and decided not to mess with it. I tried Atomic “Cycling Subsonic”. It was like 102gr, but it keyholed badly in my 1/7 12.3”. It definitely didn’t cycle, either, but I didn’t try it with the can. DocSherm said he had success with their ammo.
Speer makes a heavy RNSP. I wonder if that might be a good projectile choice. Maybe you could try Trailboss with pillow guts.
Yes and quiet is possible, but no cycling in my attempts.
I do a lot of subsonic reloading. Such as 300Blck, 9mm, .458SOCOM, .308, .44 special, etc.
Mostly bolt action but have AR15 set up specifically for subsonic in .300black, 9mm, .45acp, and .458.
I never tried loading subsonic .223 for an AR15.
But if I did, I would use a heavy ( long) bullet like a 77 grain, pistol powder like H110 with filler, and preferably an adjustable gas regulator. I would experiment with lighter buffer weights. Possibly a silencer to add backpressure.
I would expect a lot of failure to cycle, failure to feed.
Also bullet keyholing.
Good luck and please update if you find a workable solution.
It would be easier just to get a .22 conversion.
Have one, but it's not the same. And they get the rifle FILTHY! I mean failed trigger resets within 200 rounds kind of filthy, and it schmoos up the gas tube and everything, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViniVidivici
Keyholling would be fine. I just want to shoot steel inside 50 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1168
How do they load such a heavy projectile? I didn't think it was even possible.
Were squibs a problem? Did you use some kind of fill to take up case volume?Quote:
Originally Posted by 308sako
I was thinking about the cycling thing, maybe I could try using a super light buffer, spring, and aluminum carrier. That's no more commitment than using my .22 conversion, and it wouldn't get things so dirty.
I would consider just picking up a 9mm PCC. You can shoot steel, and in normal times, it’s way cheaper to shoot.
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Cleaning rimfire cans sucks, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
You’re not concerned with baffle strikes?Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
To the dude that suggested a long, heavy bullet: don’t forget about stabilization. Heavy is good, but length is something that has to be considered.
The PCC suggestion is a pretty good one, and I use that for a significant portion of my close range training for the reasons that popped up in this thread, and more. If the goal is inexpensive SBR training that won’t break your ossicles, a PCC is an awesome tool. It’ll never be as quiet as a subsonic small-bore, but its a happy medium that’ll work your timer without being overly loud and expensive. Mine is a very near-clone to my 556 gun, instead of being super short or pimped for USPSA.
Magazine dimensional limits would be my concern with heavy long bullets. I have tried the Atomic subs out of an 18” barrel using a can and no cycling but stupid quiet. I was concerned about the bullet leaving the barrel as well. I think I will stick with .300 blk subs suppressed with pistol length gas. To me there is no point in trying to reload subsonic .223 when there are better options IMO.
I quit my reply yesterday trying to think of a diplomatic way to say the exact same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViniVidivici
Atomic makes two weights of .223 subs. Which did you use, and did it stabilize?
Quote:
Originally Posted by duece71
I have so much money in my setup I can't clone it to another upper. Still kind of the same thing though where it's still just not quite the same. Different mags, different ergos.Quote:
Originally Posted by mRad
What, your training clone would need a MAWL and Nightforce? Now I’m interested for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
Wobble inside the suppressor would be a great way to initiate baffle strikes... Just sayin...
I did already mention that my primary goal here is to be able to shoot at night without bothering the neighbors.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1168
Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
And you don't think pistol powders and 'fillers' are going to dirty up your gas tube?
Well, you’re going to have to make the compromise somewhere. Cartridges not designed to be subsonic don’t function well in semi-autos. They are dirty and unreliable. They also don’t stabilize well. Your options are:Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
.300 Blackout upper
9mm upper and 9mm magazine insert
.22 conversion
Or buying expensive .223 subs or loading your own and experiencing a dirty, unreliable load that risks a baffle strike of your suppressor. I wish there was a better solution but there really isn’t one. I would suggest buying property out of town without neighbors but that’s probably also unattainable if a second upper is out of the question.
How many neighbors do you have and how close are they? Maybe explain what you’re doing and work out a time once every week or two when it will have minimum impact on them.
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Did 20 as a joke years back for a buddy that had a 223 bolt gun. You are not going to get them to cycle an AR. This is one of the reasons 300 blackout was invented. Build a 300 blk upper and it will be quieter.
I agree with the previous post about a 22lr conversion kit (CMMG makes a great one) which is probably your best bet if you only 556 can. If you run 500 rounds of 22lr through a 556 can and then do a mag dump or two of 556 it will clean out any crap from 22lr.
I wish you well in this endeavor. Please update if you get anywhere. It’d be a cool pest control gat.Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
I ended up putting an OWL on my 9mm short range training analogue where the MAWL is on its counterpart. And a Romeo4t instead of a T2. Same can, different bore.
Who manufactures ammo like that? Physics tells me (as little as I know about it), that it's basically impossible to have subsonic ammo cycle an unmodified AR...Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
There are guys using Trail Boss to load subsonic rifle rounds (not only .223, but also .308, .30-06, etc.), but those won't cycle your AR.
Hmmm... IIRC H110 was the original .30 Carbine powder, where it pushes a 110gr bullet 2,000fps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready.Fire.Aim
Pushing a 77gr bullet <1,000fps is going to be a big step down in energy, and that would be a mostly empty .223 case.
I expect you'd need to ruin your barrel by hogging out the gas port and then run an empty buffer and a lighter buffer spring to get this to work...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViniVidivici
I have a CMMG conversion, and it's good for 200-300rnds before it's so filthy it starts choking.Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
Of course it's not the same... You know the only thing that's the same as shooting .223? Shooting .223.
You might try different ammo: All .22lr is dirty, but some are dirtier than others.
A 300BLK upper is the answer you seek [emoji4] I messed around with trail boss just for fun but obviously zero chance of cycling.
My m&p 15-22 is suppressed and it doesn't get that dirty or have failures until maybe 500 rounds or more. But now I have two rifles setup alike. So that's a bit of an extra cost. Also you could convert to 300blk and that gets real quite.Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
Edit my 22 gets a good deep clean every 2-3 range trips. I shoot maybe 200-300 rounds per trip. I do usually throw some lube on the bcg every trip though. I mostly shoot federal, but I've had some Winchester in it and a few other brands. 22 is dirty but this is my experience.
It is out of town, but not like Alaskan outback kind of out of town. I envy people who live in Arizona and have all that wide open space.Quote:
Originally Posted by mRad
I think lots of nighttime gunfire would draw unwelcome attention, no matter where you were...Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
If you're in Oklahoma, then why not buy a can?
Or find a nearby range that'll let you shoot nights? (Mine would, if I wanted to do so, and I'm in California.)
It's not THAT great in AZ. Especially when they shut shooting down due to wild fire restrictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by okie
I have a can, but it's still pretty loud. Wanna do some nods shooting with the Mk18. It would absolutely draw unwanted attention, but with subs it would be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer
We just paid 200k for 20 acres, and that was pretty cheap, and still a decent drive away. The alternative is paying like 50 bucks to breath lead, or going to the fud range where you basically can't do anything except sight in the old deer rifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by markm
I have a buddy who lives a little further out, and we did some supersonic nods shooting, but the guy like half a mile away kind of griped a little bit.
Not at all in my part of rural Texas. It even surprises me LEO never shows up responding to reports of full auto fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer
LOL, my wife had her Sunday School church group over to our farm. They all set up sewing machines in the house, they were sewing gift stockings for an orphanage Christmas.
Ladies 55-85.
They asked if they could shoot a machine gun.
All took turns doing mag dumps from an Uzi into a round hay bale.
Watching the phone Videos were the highlight of the crowd sitting in the stands at that Friday night’s football game!
Good man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready.Fire.Aim
i had a ceiner kit on a suppressed dedicated upper with my registered full auto lower back when 550 count federal bulk packs were $8 at wally world. pretty much non-stop mag dumps for hours at a time haha. yeah it gets dirty. and yeah 22lr isn't the most reliable round on the planet, but it worked well enough. i never had trigger problems thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by okie
use a dedicated upper so you get
-a real 22 barrel with appropriate twist and no chamber insert
-no gas port, since it's blow back anyway
-avoid wear on the upper
Wouldn't that be about as much hitting power as shooting a projectile out of a good sling shot. It would get about the same speed.
80 grain projectile travelling 900fps??? If your slingshot is a .380, sure I guess.:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by 545Warman
This isn't about shooting things dead, though. It's just about being able to use my AR at night without having to resort to the 22 conversion kit.
I guess I lucky I'm a member of a range that lets me shoot until midnight on weekends (10 on week days)with just about anything I want to shoot.
The range was there before the neighbors so they have to deal with it, but we have rules so we can't shoot after those hours.