M193 vs 9mm JHP cost vs effectiveness, other factors...

Given the volatility of the ammo market and related prices I got to thinking...

M193 is expensive, 9mm JHP is also expensive, so which one is more "cost effective"?

Where I'm at the cost of M193 vs 9mm JHP is almost the same right now.

I have guns and ammo for both already. However, in this current market if I want to buy more and I'm not made of endless bags of money (I'm "low income" but have zero debt and few bills so it's ok-ish), where should I focus?

9mm has the benefit that it fits in a conventionally holster-able pistol which can be concealed. It is also less loud.

By contrast, as far as I can tell, in most other ways the M193 wins hands down.

Therefore I think I should focus on picking up some more M193 even if that means I cannot also pick up 9mm JHP.

Any ideas, thoughts, opinions, or suggestions as to why that might not be the case?

Thanks.

TED

The likelihood of most of us needing to defend ourselves with a personally owned firearm is already incredibly low.

That low probability is made imperceptibly small if it were with a rifle.

If you want the maximum bang for your buck, you should focus on healthy eating, exercise, and training effectively with the handgun you carry every day - in that order.

Well, you're not wrong...but that's not what I asked. Thanks anyways. ;-)

You have to define the mission.

Self Defense is not defining the mission. Where do you live, threat level etc. Those are the questions you must ask.

A rifle round make so much more damage than a pistol.

Having said that history is full of examples of people using 9mm shoulder fired weapons to fight wars, defend farms, etc.

The Glock is what I can carry to the Publix on a Saturday afternoon while the AR is better for defending my homestead out in the country. Oh, and Yoni and Euro both nailed it.

Doubletap...

Which one do you have with you most of the time.

If you are a CCW guy all day and the rifle is at home in the safe, I'd lean heavy towards 9mm.

If you have a lot of land and the AR is in the truck with you all day long and the handgun is in the nightstand, then I'd lean heavy towards 5.56.

If it's about equal, I'd go 50/50.

Much as I like to train with the MP5 and M4s and keep respectable reserves of ammo. Most of the time I've had a firearm in my hand because stuff was happening, it's usually been the SIG that is always on my hip. So that is the one I try and keep current with and keep fed.

Well, how often do you shoot hollow points? How much mags do you have? Guns? How much reserve do you need? If I had one SW Shield with 2 mags and that's it I'd probably keep about 250 rounds on hand and rotate eventually. If I had a load out kit with G34 + 5 mags with +2 adaptors or G19X mags. Then I'd say about a case and rotate eventually. Is there a 9mm PCC in the picture? Point is you carry the hollow points and you practice with fmj.

How much of that do you need? Well enough for the mags you plan to use if it came to that + however many you feel comfortable testing in your gun to make sure everything functions as should + some reserve.


However

Ideally you would buy more with what you train more with. And you would be training more with what you carry more often. So it would be initial investment in your favorite HP then fmj on rotation for practice



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This was on Fox News but Colion Noir had on his YouTube channel as well. Four armed thugs and homeowner had an AR15.

https://youtu.be/zV-Rx5s2u1U

In a situation like this, I’d split it 50/50.

With that, you’d have ammo to train with and ammo for SD/HD/whateverD.

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Originally Posted by TED

Given the volatility of the ammo market and related prices I got to thinking...

M193 is expensive, 9mm JHP is also expensive, so which one is more "cost effective"?

Where I'm at the cost of M193 vs 9mm JHP is almost the same right now.

I have guns and ammo for both already. However, in this current market if I want to buy more and I'm not made of endless bags of money (I'm "low income" but have zero debt and few bills so it's ok-ish), where should I focus?

9mm has the benefit that it fits in a conventionally holster-able pistol which can be concealed. It is also less loud.

By contrast, as far as I can tell, in most other ways the M193 wins hands down.

Therefore I think I should focus on picking up some more M193 even if that means I cannot also pick up 9mm JHP.

Any ideas, thoughts, opinions, or suggestions as to why that might not be the case?

Thanks.

TED

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Originally Posted by TED

Well, you're not wrong...but that's not what I asked. Thanks anyways. ;-)

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Your question didn’t make any sense, so I didn’t answer it.

I told you what you needed to know. :)

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Originally Posted by Eurodriver

Your question didn’t make any sense, so I didn’t answer it.

I told you what you needed to know. :)

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I THINK he specifically wanted to know hollow point 9mm vs 193. Which to buy more of?!?!

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I would not worry about 9mm hollowpoint, I would stock up on 9mm ball. It will do it's job, if you do your job. Also if all you can afford to buy is say 300 hollowpoint rounds, how many ball rounds can you buy for the same price.

Bottom line a weapon with ball ammo will 100% of the time beat a weapon with no ammo because you have shot up your supply

This month I shared a link for .40 S&W Gold Dot for $0.45/pc shipped. The cheapest .40 S&W ball ammo is going for $0.41/pc before shipping, and 9mm is close. All this from AmmoSeek. Old price structures don't always apply now.

A few hundred rounds of good pistol HP should be more than enough for anything a pistol can get you through.

Double that for your rifle. Preferably some good barrier blind load rather than M193. Might as well stack the odds in your favor.

Now worry about something else, running out of ammo in an otherwise survivable situation is too far beyond realistic.

I was going to recommend to forgo the JHP, but that sometimes gets unwanted comments.

I agree with you 100% on your post.

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Originally Posted by yoni

I would not worry about 9mm hollowpoint, I would stock up on 9mm ball. It will do it's job, if you do your job. Also if all you can afford to buy is say 300 hollowpoint rounds, how many ball rounds can you buy for the same price.

Bottom line a weapon with ball ammo will 100% of the time beat a weapon with no ammo because you have shot up your supply

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I have both.

Whichever is closest to me when things go stupid is the most effective, period.

End of days I will take the extended range and lethal Aliti of the M193

Close range or man portable concealed 9 mm rules


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Originally Posted by Todd.K

A few hundred rounds of good pistol HP should be more than enough for anything a pistol can get you through.

Double that for your rifle. Preferably some good barrier blind load rather than M193. Might as well stack the odds in your favor.

Now worry about something else, running out of ammo in an otherwise survivable situation is too far beyond realistic.

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If someone is so cash strapped that they had to make a thread about it, 1-2 boxes of one of Doc's listed HPs would be fine and the rest ball. Same with .223, a 1-2 mags of good Duty quality ammo followed by nothing but Wolf if you are poor will maximize your training time.

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Originally Posted by Eurodriver

Your question didn’t make any sense, so I didn’t answer it.

I told you what you needed to know. :)

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His question made sense to me.

If you need a gun to defend yourself odds are you'll be in public armed with a handgun only.

I reccomend the 9mm JHP's.

Even at home you're more likely to defend yourself with a pistol. You probably won't get a lot of notice to prepare.

My handgun is close at hand. At night it's on the nightstand, or somewhere else accessible, if I'm not carrying it on my person. By contrast the AR is in a closet.

Odds are even if I'd rather have the AR, I'm going to be defending myself with the pistol, because it's going to be what I was able to get my hands on in the little time I had to do that

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Originally Posted by Martin248

Even at home you're more likely to defend yourself with a pistol. You probably won't get a lot of notice to prepare.

My handgun is close at hand. At night it's on the nightstand, or somewhere else accessible, if I'm not carrying it on my person. By contrast the AR is in a closet.

Odds are even if I'd rather have the AR, I'm going to be defending myself with the pistol, because it's going to be what I was able to get my hands on in the little time I had to do that

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But the AR can be next to the nightstand just as easily as the handgun can be in the safe. Things are going to be wherever you put them. I put my AR by the nightstand.



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If you're a believer in playing the percentages, then stock up on 9mm.

Such an odd ball question. Stock up on anything you can get. A handgun is a means to get you to your rifle if possible.

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Originally Posted by Ron3

If you need a gun to defend yourself odds are you'll be in public armed with a handgun only.

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Not unless you hang out with turds. The amount of legit people which I have seen victims of armed robbery pales in comparison to the amount of turds who are getting jacked. If you choose to hang out in alleys in the seedy part of town, sure. If you are a real person shopping and going back and forth about your business, odds are incredibly low.

However, when you look at burglaries in which the dwelling may or may not be occupied... the odds are much much higher. Turds know that other turds don't own nice things (except dope and weed), so they go "uptown" to jack from the rich folk. Its a crap shoot when it will happen as some burglars only hit in the daytime work hours, while others want to slip in under the cover of night betting on stealth. I can't give you an honest answer on which is more likely to be armed.

I'm basing my comments on being a long time cop in an active poop hole of a city, and going to hundreds and hundreds (if not more) of these calls.

There is no excuse for not having several mags (or more) of decent hollow point loaded up at all times. On that same note, there is no excuse for not having multiple mags of some type of ammo loaded for your AR as well. M193 is a lot better than any pistol round is going to be, but using a decent soft point is a solid option to expand and spend its terminal energy into the "bad man" also, and I would rather go that way if those were my two cheap choices.

Since I originally posted this I have managed to acquire 500rds of 9mm Federal HST 124gr JHP and also 1,000 rounds of M193 put aside and dedicated to the emergency reserves.

Thanks for all the insight guys.

TED

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Originally Posted by Stickman

Not unless you hang out with turds. The amount of legit people which I have seen victims of armed robbery pales in comparison to the amount of turds who are getting jacked. If you choose to hang out in alleys in the seedy part of town, sure. If you are a real person shopping and going back and forth about your business, odds are incredibly low.

However, when you look at burglaries in which the dwelling may or may not be occupied... the odds are much much higher. Turds know that other turds don't own nice things (except dope and weed), so they go "uptown" to jack from the rich folk. Its a crap shoot when it will happen as some burglars only hit in the daytime work hours, while others want to slip in under the cover of night betting on stealth. I can't give you an honest answer on which is more likely to be armed.

I'm basing my comments on being a long time cop in an active poop hole of a city, and going to hundreds and hundreds (if not more) of these calls.

There is no excuse for not having several mags (or more) of decent hollow point loaded up at all times. On that same note, there is no excuse for not having multiple mags of some type of ammo loaded for your AR as well. M193 is a lot better than any pistol round is going to be, but using a decent soft point is a solid option to expand and spend its terminal energy into the "bad man" also, and I would rather go that way if those were my two cheap choices.

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This is very interesting that you say this, and please don't think I am doubting your experience. What part of the country are you in?

I have a close friend who was a beat cop in a large city in Tennessee for the majority of his career, then recently retired as a Detective. I think he was 30+ years in, but I don't know for sure.

His take was always the opposite - that unless you're running a drug house or doing something seedy at home the odds of a home invasion are infinitely smaller than the odds of being messed with randomly out and about where you'd need your CCW. Like you, he based this on the many, many incidents he has worked over his career.

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Originally Posted by grizzlyblake

This is very interesting that you say this, and please don't think I am doubting your experience. What part of the country are you in?

I have a close friend who was a beat cop in a large city in Tennessee for the majority of his career, then recently retired as a Detective. I think he was 30+ years in, but I don't know for sure.

His take was always the opposite - that unless you're running a drug house or doing something seedy at home the odds of a home invasion are infinitely smaller than the odds of being messed with randomly out and about where you'd need your CCW. Like you, he based this on the many, many incidents he has worked over his career.

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In my experience many burglaries and home invasions occur after you have a contractor inside your home replacing drywall, painting, etc. The contractor may chat with someone in a tavern and tell them you have valuables in your home, then the tavern dweller commits the home invasion.

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Originally Posted by TED

Since I originally posted this I have managed to acquire 500rds of 9mm Federal HST 124gr JHP and also 1,000 rounds of M193 put aside and dedicated to the emergency reserves.

Thanks for all the insight guys.

TED

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Nice. Save those for a shtf situation.
And whenever you can (depending on price) look for 200-300 rounds of both 9mm ball and 5.56/223 for practice.

Comes down to the mission, I personally Carry a 45ACP 230 grain hollow points and a 5.56 rifle with M193 which is very effective. You want the round that does the most damage to a target to end the threat the fastest. If I could carry a rifle daily no matter how little of a chance of needing it I would if I could.

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Originally Posted by zack991

I personally Carry a 45ACP 230 grain hollow points and a 5.56 rifle with M193 which is very effective.

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Have you researched the fleet yaw effects on M193? It is not as consistent as other options.

Not to derail the discussion, but I think a real challenge for a private citizen is the lack of good data on self defense engagements. I have a military background, and I was always trained to review AARs and get an “most likely” and “most dangerous” enemy COA before stepping out the door. I admittedly have not taken a ton of classes, but much of the info I’ve gotten on self defense shootings is anecdotal.

I think far more people use a rifle defensively today than since the 19th century. For me, there is no reason not to grab a rifle if I’m home and something goes bump in the night. I think M193 is a “good enough” choice, and far superior to Green Tip for a civilian, but there are better options. That said, I’ve been able to find serviceable 9mm JHPs like Winchester personal defense and Federal classic for only a few cents more per round than 9mm NATO ball, so it’s not a major investment to have plenty on hand.

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Originally Posted by Disciple

Have you researched the fleet yaw effects on M193? It is not as consistent as other options.

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I have been happy using it for a simple training round as well as a basic self defense load. I like the black hills 77grain round they offer for my go to war kit. I hate the green tip crap everyone talks up. We had issues with it overseas just zipping through and not doing much damage to the targets.

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Originally Posted by zack991

I have been happy using it for a simple training round as well as a basic self defense load. I like the black hills 77grain round they offer for my go to war kit. I hate the green tip crap everyone talks up. We had issues with it overseas just zipping through and not doing much damage to the targets.

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In A-Stan I saw a dude run about 50 meters after taking multiple hits from Green Tip.

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Originally Posted by zack991

I have been happy using it for a simple training round as well as a basic self defense load. I like the black hills 77grain round they offer for my go to war kit.

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Why not use the BH 77 grain load as first line since you already have it?

I dont have a lot of it on hand, the price is insane for it right now. I have 4 mags loaded in my kit for a shitty day. M193 out of a 16 inch LMT will do the job for the vast majority of things.

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Originally Posted by zack991

Comes down to the mission, I personally Carry a 45ACP 230 grain hollow points and a 5.56 rifle with M193 which is very effective. You want the round that does the most damage to a target to end the threat the fastest. If I could carry a rifle daily no matter how little of a chance of needing it I would if I could.

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Originally Posted by zack991

I hear it all the time from 9mm shooters at work and I laugh. Every time there is a major FBI shooting where the 9mm fails to stop a bad guy, they will go running around with their hair on fire to find the next magic bullet that their female officers can handle instead of holding higher standards for employment. Why I don't care what the FBI says, they went to 10mm after the last time the 9mm was a disaster and they were forced to develop a new round called the 40SW that their female officers still couldn't handle and retreated by to the 9mm. They went to 9mm for a compromise, not because it was the better round. The 45acp is a very effective round even in a FMJ and bullet tech has also increased for the 45 as well. The 45ACP isnt as powerful as it is shown in Bruce Willis movie the "Last man standing but it certainly has more energy in my eyes.

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You realize how dumb you sound right? You claim to want to use the most effective rounds possible which is why you are carrying .45 yet you choose M193 which has loads of evidence being an inconsistent performer. Seems to me you are either terminal ballistics illiterate or just trying to troll people who use 9mm. So which is it? Are you just an uninformed user or just one of those "durr hurr 9mm weak, .45 strong" morons?

Depends on what situation you are in. But I would probably always choose the rifle over the handgun, no matter what handgun caliber. If the particular situation is possible to have the rifle with me.

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Originally Posted by TBAR_94

In A-Stan I saw a dude run about 50 meters after taking multiple hits from Green Tip.

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I know there are lots of reports of M855 penciling right thru people, but it frags all over the place in gel test shots. Of course humans are not made of ballistic gelatin.