5.45x.39 versus 5.56x.45

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Originally Posted by MegademiC

I suggest you look at the terminal ballistics forum.
Yes, many rounds, especially bonded hps like your bear claw or federal fusion offer superior ballistics than 5.45.
Tumbling is not the best wounding mechanism. Your t2 will tumble and frag which does much more tissue damage.
Bonded rounds expand leading to increased surface area (wounding like a tumbling bullet), but it creates a consistent wound channel. It also tends to travel straighter, and offers better barrier penetration.

In short, bonded rounds let you have cake and eat it too.

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This. Relying on something to tumble isn't a reliable plan for stopping a deadly threat. I'm not trying to imply anything here but it seems like that's what you're asking. It's been well documented over the years that 5.56 rounds can be so-so at stopping humans. The solution to that for those of us who are stuck with a 5.56 platform are shot placement and follow-up shots. Don't take my word for it, read Blackhawk Down by Mark Bowden or We were soldiers once by Hal Moore. Here's a more modern reference- 12 years after Somalia, a close friend of mine was shooting an M-4 at insurgents in the Kandari Market (Baghdad) Iraq. He wondered how he could shoot guys five times and they still made it across the street. It turns out that when his squad moved up the street, they found dead insurgents stacked up in the alleys.

Here's a story about something that actually happened to me. The police department I work for issues Federal 62 grain bonded PSP for patrol rifles. One night, I got into an incident where a guy with a shotgun came at me and two friends. One friend, armed with a RRA AR-15 shot nine rounds at him and hit him once, right below the sternum. He flopped around and lived long enough to crawl halfway across a house before he died in the master bathroom. That one modern, expensive bonded duty round killed him completely dead but not instantly. He could have still shot back at us if he was determined to do so.

In conclusion, no matter what rifle or round you're using- if you can put five in the center chest of what you're trying to stop it will probably stop. Maybe you're getting too hung up on the performance of something that was not designed for one shot stops.

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Originally Posted by The Mig

This. Relying on something to tumble isn't a reliable plan for stopping a deadly threat. I'm not trying to imply anything here but it seems like that's what you're asking. It's been well documented over the years that 5.56 rounds can be so-so at stopping humans. The solution to that for those of us who are stuck with a 5.56 platform are shot placement and follow-up shots. Don't take my word for it, read Blackhawk Down by Mark Bowden or We were soldiers once by Hal Moore. Here's a more modern reference- 12 years after Somalia, a close friend of mine was shooting an M-4 at insurgents in the Kandari Market (Baghdad) Iraq. He wondered how he could shoot guys five times and they still made it across the street. It turns out that when his squad moved up the street, they found dead insurgents stacked up in the alleys.

Here's a story about something that actually happened to me. The police department I work for issues Federal 62 grain bonded PSP for patrol rifles. One night, I got into an incident where a guy with a shotgun came at me and two friends. One friend, armed with a RRA AR-15 shot nine rounds at him and hit him once, right below the sternum. He flopped around and lived long enough to crawl halfway across a house before he died in the master bathroom. That one modern, expensive bonded duty round killed him completely dead but not instantly. He could have still shot back at us if he was determined to do so.

In conclusion, no matter what rifle or round you're using- if you can put five in the center chest of what you're trying to stop it will probably stop. Maybe you're getting too hung up on the performance of something that was not designed for one shot stops.

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And there have been multiple recorded instances of hajis absorbing 50BMJ and continuing to fight, something taking several before dying. There was even an Indian soldier who took dozens of rounds of 30 Cal from an MG as he stormed the pill box and killed those inside. He lived. There was even a guy who survived TWO atomic bombs and the radiation and died in his 90s.

There is no guarantee unless the CNS is severed and even then some people survive being shot in the head

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Arik

And there have been multiple recorded instances of hajis absorbing 50BMJ and continuing to fight, something taking several before dying. There was even an Indian soldier who took dozens of rounds of 30 Cal from an MG as he stormed the pill box and killed those inside. He lived. There was even a guy who survived TWO atomic bombs and the radiation and died in his 90s.

There is no guarantee unless the CNS is severed and even then some people survive being shot in the head

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

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Ok, looks like we took different ways to get there but made the same point. CNS shutdown is the only reliant way to stop an attacking human. All other wounds just cause varying levels of bleeding, so the person shot will slowly depressurize until passing out leading to organ shutdown/death.

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Originally Posted by The Mig

Ok, looks like we took different ways to get there but made the same point. CNS shutdown is the only reliant way to stop an attacking human. All other wounds just cause varying levels of bleeding, so the person shot will slowly depressurize until passing out leading to organ shutdown/death.

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Breaking the hips, legs, or severing CNS will put someone down quickly. While 5.56 will definitely break bones in the extremities, it will quickly loses energy once it fragments for a more center of mass shot. Sure the person will die due to the massive trauma but they can likely still stand and continue fighting until they bleed out. That's the one quality I like about 5.45 is that it retains energy, such that it could punch through the center mass and come out through the spine or through the hips dropping the person quickly. However we're not in Eastern Europe so there is no reason to even consider standardizing on 5.45 over 5.56NATO. I was lured by the cheap surplus 7n6 so I bought a lot of it but I prefer 5.56 overall.

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Originally Posted by 7n6

While 5.56 will definitely break bones in the extremities, it will quickly loses energy once it fragments for a more center of mass shot.

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Bullets that hold together well through the windshield test do well going through bone.

One more reason to switch to an expanding barrier blind load. Leave the fragmenting stuff for long range ammo where terminal performance is secondary to accuracy.

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Originally Posted by 7n6

Breaking the hips, legs, or severing CNS will put someone down quickly. While 5.56 will definitely break bones in the extremities, it will quickly loses energy once it fragments for a more center of mass shot. Sure the person will die due to the massive trauma but they can likely still stand and continue fighting until they bleed out. That's the one quality I like about 5.45 is that it retains energy, such that it could punch through the center mass and come out through the spine or through the hips dropping the person quickly. However we're not in Eastern Europe so there is no reason to even consider standardizing on 5.45 over 5.56NATO. I was lured by the cheap surplus 7n6 so I bought a lot of it but I prefer 5.56 overall.

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This 5.56 round completely destroyed the spinal column to the point that I could move both halves independently, easily. As I recall, roughly 4 ribs on the entrance were broken or otherwise detached from the spine. Bullet entered frame top left, and exited bottom right. The animal was quartering towards me. Also note the retained velocity as it exited, evidenced by the bloodshot area around said exit. I would estimate this doe at roughly 130-150#. Attachment 54726

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Originally Posted by 7n6

Breaking the hips, legs, or severing CNS will put someone down quickly. While 5.56 will definitely break bones in the extremities, it will quickly loses energy once it fragments for a more center of mass shot. Sure the person will die due to the massive trauma but they can likely still stand and continue fighting until they bleed out. That's the one quality I like about 5.45 is that it retains energy, such that it could punch through the center mass and come out through the spine or through the hips dropping the person quickly. However we're not in Eastern Europe so there is no reason to even consider standardizing on 5.45 over 5.56NATO. I was lured by the cheap surplus 7n6 so I bought a lot of it but I prefer 5.56 overall.

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I like how you generalize 5.56 like all 5.56 bullets are created equal. Unlike the idiots in ToS' M193 echo chamber ammo forum would like you to believe not all 5.56 bullets are created equal.

You guys know that the OP in this thread has been banned, and is never coming back, right?