Ideas why I've got poor shot dispersion from CZ Scorpion?

Not just poor, but downright shitty. Tried a Vortex Razor and then the irons. I could walk up to within about 10 yards and hit just about where I was aiming. Back off to 25yds (from a rest no less!) and one shot would hit generally where I was aiming, but the next ones wouldn't even be on paper, and I was using a full-sized silhouette target too. I was pissed to say the least. Went through almost 100rds. I came real close to flinging the g-damn thing downrange. The only thing that saved it from learning to fly was that the Franklin binary trigger was cool as hell to play with. And no, I was zeroing on semi, not binary!

I haven't torn it down yet (don't really want to even look at it right now) but was wondering what the cause of this completely, utterly unacceptable dispersion was? One thing I'll look at is the crown, as well as the inside of the FH to see if there's any marks. Is the action held inside the plastic body with set screws? Worse-case scenario is it goes back to CZ, but that is a royal PIA.

Thoughts?

I had exactly the same experience, as have many Scorpion owners. Make sure that the thread protector under the crappy "compensator" has not come unscrewed. It is a surprisingly common and dangerous problem. I contacted CZ when I noticed it on my pistol and they basically said, "Yeah, that happens - snug it back down and use loctite." Here are the parts I'm talking about:

Crappy compensator - https://shop.cz-usa.com/compensator-...000800703.html
Thread protector - https://shop.cz-usa.com/evo-pistol-t...366165705.html

Good luck.

Muzzle device is loose or the barrel isn’t properly torqued.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lotta Scorpion talk on the forum lately. Or maybe I’m just noticing it more because I just got one myself. In any case, that sucks. Nothing like a new gun turning out to be a dumpster fire when you take it to the range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slimedog

I had exactly the same experience, as have many Scorpion owners. Make sure that the thread protector under the crappy "compensator" has not come unscrewed. It is a surprisingly common and dangerous problem. I contacted CZ when I noticed it on my pistol and they basically said, "Yeah, that happens - snug it back down and use loctite." Here are the parts I'm talking about:

Crappy compensator - https://shop.cz-usa.com/compensator-...000800703.html
Thread protector - https://shop.cz-usa.com/evo-pistol-t...366165705.html

Good luck.

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My micro has the comp that’s looks like the Noveske flaming pig. It came loose too, luckily I noticed it before having any problems with accuracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slimedog

I had exactly the same experience, as have many Scorpion owners. Make sure that the thread protector under the crappy "compensator" has not come unscrewed. It is a surprisingly common and dangerous problem. I contacted CZ when I noticed it on my pistol and they basically said, "Yeah, that happens - snug it back down and use loctite." Here are the parts I'm talking about:

Crappy compensator - https://shop.cz-usa.com/compensator-...000800703.html
Thread protector - https://shop.cz-usa.com/evo-pistol-t...366165705.html

Good luck.

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Thanks for the info! When I took the FH off the thread protector came off inside of it. :blink:

Oh, and I had to beat the protector out of the FH with a hammer and punch. It had a palpable and visible thin bulge on one side (like a thin raised "ridge" running maybe 1/4 of the way around).

Looked inside the FH from the rear and saw some bare metal marks all around the front inside lip of the FH. Hmmm......ordered a 9mm 1/2x28 A2 FH and crush washer. I found the factory-supplied thread protector for the "upper deck" threads (if you know what I'm talking about). Once the stuff gets here I will shoot 'er again!

Once again, thanks slimedog. ;) I would have eventually gotten to the muzzle area early on in the "investigation" but your info had me straight skip ahead to the apparent issue.

While we’re on the topic of CZ Scorpions, the HB Industries reduced weight trigger spring and the Theta forward set trigger are a huge improvement over OEM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

Thanks for the info! When I took the FH off the thread protector came off inside of it. :blink:

Oh, and I had to beat the protector out of the FH with a hammer and punch. It had a palpable and visible thin bulge on one side (like a thin raised "ridge" running maybe 1/4 of the way around).

Looked inside the FH from the rear and saw some bare metal marks all around the front inside lip of the FH. Hmmm......ordered a 9mm 1/2x28 A2 FH and crush washer. I found the factory-supplied thread protector for the "upper deck" threads (if you know what I'm talking about). Once the stuff gets here I will shoot 'er again!

Once again, thanks slimedog. ;) I would have eventually gotten to the muzzle area early on in the "investigation" but your info had me straight skip ahead to the apparent issue.

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Was this your first time shooting it? I’ll have to check mine before I shoot it now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Inkslinger

While we’re on the topic of CZ Scorpions, the HB Industries reduced weight trigger spring and the Theta forward set trigger are a huge improvement over OEM.

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The spring is on my shortlist of stuff to get, as is a right side safety delete (the HB unit or via dremel in my basement). I’m also starting to get why the stock pistol grip isn’t that popular, but I’ll probably hold off on replacing that for a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

Was this your first time shooting it? I’ll have to check mine before I shoot it now.



The spring is on my shortlist of stuff to get, as is a right side safety delete (the HB unit or via dremel in my basement). I’m also starting to get why the stock pistol grip isn’t that popular, but I’ll probably hold off on replacing that for a bit.

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The dremel is what took care of my annoying safety.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

Was this your first time shooting it? I’ll have to check mine before I shoot it now.



The spring is on my shortlist of stuff to get, as is a right side safety delete (the HB unit or via dremel in my basement). I’m also starting to get why the stock pistol grip isn’t that popular, but I’ll probably hold off on replacing that for a bit.

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I’m planning to dremel mine and put a timney in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

Was this your first time shooting it? YES I’ll have to check mine before I shoot it now.

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I had shot a few (like 10 or 15 rounds) through it , mainly to test the binary trigger. As far as a more "lengthy" shooting session? Definitely not.

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

I had shot a few (like 10 or 15 rounds) through it , mainly to test the binary trigger. As far as a more "lengthy" shooting session? Definitely not.

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That’s what I figured based on your original post, but I thought maybe it could have loosened up from a lot of shooting but it sounds like it was probably loose from the factory.

I've got an original pistol SBR'd and suppressed with a Sig SRD-45 can. It's a tack driver so much so my buddy and I play battleship on targets @ 25yard at the local indoor range. 158gr Fiocci is my round choice and I've got about 3K through it already.

I've heard of the loose parts before, which is probably the cause as most have already stated. Mine were tossed almost immediately as my Eform 1 came back in less than a month and suppressor could be shot at the range while I waited for approval. I changed the grip, OEM angle wasn't right for me and topped with an MRO.

Ammo?

My Colt ar6951 shoots buckshot patterns with 147 grain. It shoots groups with 124.

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Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe

Ammo?

My Colt ar6951 shoots buckshot patterns with 147 grain. It shoots groups with 124.

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From what I’ve read, Scorpions seem to do well with 147s. Which I hope to be the case as my plan is to use 147gr HSTs in it, which is the same load I use in my handguns. If the results aren’t great I’ll try a lighter load, not a big deal, just using the same load for handgun and PCC would be convenient.
Although for some reason I can’t stop my brain from thinking I’m simply going to just “get more” 9mm....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

Thanks for the info! When I took the FH off the thread protector came off inside of it. :blink:

Oh, and I had to beat the protector out of the FH with a hammer and punch. It had a palpable and visible thin bulge on one side (like a thin raised "ridge" running maybe 1/4 of the way around).

Looked inside the FH from the rear and saw some bare metal marks all around the front inside lip of the FH. Hmmm......ordered a 9mm 1/2x28 A2 FH and crush washer. I found the factory-supplied thread protector for the "upper deck" threads (if you know what I'm talking about). Once the stuff gets here I will shoot 'er again!

Once again, thanks slimedog. ;) I would have eventually gotten to the muzzle area early on in the "investigation" but your info had me straight skip ahead to the apparent issue.

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No problem. Some folks on the CZ forum have had good luck with o-rings instead of loctite. Eventually, I'll just get an actual flash hider with a crush washer and throw stock parts in the trash.

As others have said, the HB Industries trigger spring and trigger are excellent. Of course, you'll want to replace the manual safety - I just don't understand how they went with that design from the factory, unless nobody at CZ ever actually test fired one. I've never had a firearm that physically hurt my hand during firing until the Scorpion. I used the Parker Mountain part:

https://www.parkermountainmachine.co...or_Levers.html

After those changes, the Scorpion a fun little gun. Not as fun as a Banshee, though, IMHO... ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slimedog

No problem. Some folks on the CZ forum have had good luck with o-rings instead of loctite. Eventually, I'll just get an actual flash hider with a crush washer and throw stock parts in the trash.

As others have said, the HB Industries trigger spring and trigger are excellent. Of course, you'll want to replace the manual safety - I just don't understand how they went with that design from the factory, unless nobody at CZ ever actually test fired one. I've never had a firearm that physically hurt my hand during firing until the Scorpion. I used the Parker Mountain part:

https://www.parkermountainmachine.co...or_Levers.html

After those changes, the Scorpion a fun little gun. Not as fun as a Banshee, though, IMHO... ;-)

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While obviously nowhere near as ubiquitous as the MP5 the select-fire variant of the Scorpion has been adopted by enough police and military forces internationally that you’d think someone would have caught on that the OEM right-side safety is terrible. But I’ve actually looked around at pics of the Scorpion in the hands of foreign LE/military trying to see if they had the stock safeties on them and in the pics where the selector was visible it appeared to be stock and unmodified. So my only real guess is that most users are either standing around at airports or something with their Scorps slung and on “safe” all the time or when the guns are getting fired they are mostly being switched straight to burst or full auto, and in either case the positions of the safety relative to the user’s hand perhaps doesn’t gouge like it does when in the semi position. so maybe they aren’t noticing the issue as much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

Thanks for the info! When I took the FH off the thread protector came off inside of it. :blink:

Oh, and I had to beat the protector out of the FH with a hammer and punch. It had a palpable and visible thin bulge on one side (like a thin raised "ridge" running maybe 1/4 of the way around).

Looked inside the FH from the rear and saw some bare metal marks all around the front inside lip of the FH. Hmmm......ordered a 9mm 1/2x28 A2 FH and crush washer. I found the factory-supplied thread protector for the "upper deck" threads (if you know what I'm talking about). Once the stuff gets here I will shoot 'er again!

Once again, thanks slimedog. ;) I would have eventually gotten to the muzzle area early on in the "investigation" but your info had me straight skip ahead to the apparent issue.

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Screw all that, it is set up for a suppressor. Get a suppressor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe

Ammo?

My Colt ar6951 shoots buckshot patterns with 147 grain. It shoots groups with 124.

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Something is very wrong with that rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Something is very wrong with that rifle.

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No, this is common with 9mm PCCS. My Cx4 does the same thing. Quite accurate with 115 and 124, not so good with 147 grain stuff. Nothing wrong with the Colt.

Regarding the original problem of the thread protector coming loose, HB Industries makes this:
https://hbindustries.net/store/shop/...vo-ultra-comp/
It’s a muzzle device with an integral 1/2x28 thread protector. After reading this thread I wondered why nobody had made basically this exact thing to address the problem, and lo and behold it turns out someone has.
$60 and out of stock of course, but it exists.

Personally I’m wondering if you wanted to just keep using the factory muzzle device, if there is any particular reason you couldn’t just remove the troublesome 1/2x28 thread protector entirely and just use like a short strip of heat tape around the 1/2x28 threads. The factory 18x1 flash hider would still protect them from damage and the tape would serve to keep fouling or whatever out of them.
Just a thought.

EDIT: I don’t think I meant “heat tape”. I think I meant that aluminum tape used on heating ductwork.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe

No, this is common with 9mm PCCS. My Cx4 does the same thing. Quite accurate with 115 and 124, not so good with 147 grain stuff. Nothing wrong with the Colt.

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Mine and every other one I've ever shot must be special then. We shoot a lot of 147 gr. JHP and the performance is probably slightly better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

Regarding the original problem of the thread protector coming loose, HB Industries makes this:
https://hbindustries.net/store/shop/...vo-ultra-comp/
It’s a muzzle device with an integral 1/2x28 thread protector. After reading this thread I wondered why nobody had made basically this exact thing to address the problem, and lo and behold it turns out someone has.
$60 and out of stock of course, but it exists.

Personally I’m wondering if you wanted to just keep using the factory muzzle device, if there is any particular reason you couldn’t just remove the troublesome 1/2x28 thread protector entirely and just use like a short strip of heat tape around the 1/2x28 threads. The factory 18x1 flash hider would still protect them from damage and the tape would serve to keep fouling or whatever out of them.
Just a thought.

EDIT: I don’t think I meant “heat tape”. I think I meant that aluminum tape used on heating ductwork.

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I got a 9mm 1/2x28 FH which will screw onto those threads, no need to "tape" them up. Inside the box is another protector to cover the bigger threads (18x1) that sit behind the 1/2x28.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

I got a 9mm 1/2x28 FH which will screw onto those threads, no need to "tape" them up. Inside the box is another protector to cover the bigger threads (18x1) that sit behind the 1/2x28.

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In my case I don’t have any 1/2x28 9mm flash hiders laying around and was just going to use the factory muzzle device until I’ve shot the gun enough to decide I like it enough to start buying other accessories for it.

I’ve kind of accelerated my usual purchasing timetable with regard to buying mags for it, for obvious reasons but I generally wait on buying widgets for new guns until they’ve proven to not be a lemon/POS. I once made the mistake of buying a ton of accessories for a gun that turned out to be unreliable and ended up regretting it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Mine and every other one I've ever shot must be special then. We shoot a lot of 147 gr. JHP and the performance is probably slightly better.

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My Scorpion prefers 147gr ammunition. My buddy’s prefers 115gr. I haven’t seen a Scorpion yet that shoots anything poorly, outside of when those flash hiders come loose, and the one that had a loose barrel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay, replaced the factory FH and that stupid little nut underneath it with a 9mm AR-style FH. Finally it groups! Zeroed the Vortex Razor RDS at 25yds from the bench and was getting perhaps a little over 2" groups (of course my astigmatism doesn't help when you see one red dot birthing another!). Used 115gr FMJ. So finally I gave it a good cleaning and next time out will zero the Ranger-T 147gr ammo I intend to use in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ABNAK

Okay, replaced the factory FH and that stupid little nut underneath it with a 9mm AR-style FH. Finally it groups! Zeroed the Vortex Razor RDS at 25yds from the bench and was getting perhaps a little over 2" groups (of course my astigmatism doesn't help when you see one red dot birthing another!). Used 115gr FMJ. So finally I gave it a good cleaning and next time out will zero the Ranger-T 147gr ammo I intend to use in it.

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I’ve still barely shot mine, but I was able to at least take mine out and function test it. It grouped pretty decently at 50yards, except it was hitting about 4” left. And of course I happened to not have anything on me that was small enough to depress the decent in the rear sight to correct the windage. So, next time I guess.


One thing though...there seems to have been some buzz lately about the Scorpion’s apparent ability to fire out of battery. The select-fire Scorp apparently has a sear mechanism to prevent OBDs. However the ATF nixed that part being included in the semi-auto S1 Scorpion as they apparently constitute “machine gun” parts.
There is still another mechanism that mitigates the risk of OBDs however and the S1s do have this - a Firing Pin Block. However it seems that there have been some off and on issues with this part being out of spec so checking yours to ensure it is functioning properly is a good idea.

https://imgur.com/a/SPD7RCv

Even with a bad Firing Pin Block a Scorpion might run for thousands of rounds without issue though, until suddenly it doesn’t.
Bump firing and binary triggers can apparently exacerbate the risk, but from what I’m understanding *currently* these issues are probably occurring in guns that, unbeknownst to their owners, had these faulty firing pin blocks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

I’ve still barely shot mine, but I was able to at least take mine out and function test it. It grouped pretty decently at 50yards, except it was hitting about 4” left. And of course I happened to not have anything on me that was small enough to depress the decent in the rear sight to correct the windage. So, next time I guess.


One thing though...there seems to have been some buzz lately about the Scorpion’s apparent ability to fire out of battery. The select-fire Scorp apparently has a sear mechanism to prevent OBDs. However the ATF nixed that part being included in the semi-auto S1 Scorpion as they apparently constitute “machine gun” parts.
There is still another mechanism that mitigates the risk of OBDs however and the S1s do have this - a Firing Pin Block. However it seems that there have been some off and on issues with this part being out of spec so checking yours to ensure it is functioning properly is a good idea.

https://imgur.com/a/SPD7RCv

Even with a bad Firing Pin Block a Scorpion might run for thousands of rounds without issue though, until suddenly it doesn’t.
Bump firing and binary triggers can apparently exacerbate the risk, but from what I’m understanding *currently* these issues are probably occurring in guns that, unbeknownst to their owners, had these faulty firing pin blocks.

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Thanks for the heads-up. I have the Franklin Armory binary in mine, so I'll have to keep an eye on it. It is, however, cool as hell! :moil:

The one sample I shot had what I think is an incredibly crappy trigger. Not a fan.

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Originally Posted by Esq.

The one sample I shot had what I think is an incredibly crappy trigger. Not a fan.

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The triggers are pretty shitty although it didn’t bother me as much during actual shooting as it did when dry firing. HB Industries sells a trigger spring kit for like 10$ that I hear improves things a bit. Once I decide to start dumping more money into mine I may get one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

The triggers are pretty shitty although it didn’t bother me as much during actual shooting as it did when dry firing. HB Industries sells a trigger spring kit for like 10$ that I hear improves things a bit. Once I decide to start dumping more money into mine I may get one.

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The spring and forward set trigger basically cut the trigger pull weight in half. Night an day difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Inkslinger

The spring and forward set trigger basically cut the trigger pull weight in half. Night an day difference.

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+1. First thing to install when you get the gun home.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

Regarding the original problem of the thread protector coming loose, HB Industries makes this:
https://hbindustries.net/store/shop/...vo-ultra-comp/
It’s a muzzle device with an integral 1/2x28 thread protector. After reading this thread I wondered why nobody had made basically this exact thing to address the problem, and lo and behold it turns out someone has.
$60 and out of stock of course, but it exists.

Personally I’m wondering if you wanted to just keep using the factory muzzle device, if there is any particular reason you couldn’t just remove the troublesome 1/2x28 thread protector entirely and just use like a short strip of heat tape around the 1/2x28 threads. The factory 18x1 flash hider would still protect them from damage and the tape would serve to keep fouling or whatever out of them.
Just a thought.

EDIT: I don’t think I meant “heat tape”. I think I meant that aluminum tape used on heating ductwork.

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The thread protector coming loose issue isn't really solvable if you also run suppressed, as loc-tite makes it impractical to repeatedly take the protector on and off. You should never use the thread protector imo:

Unsuppressed - just use the flash hider. It doesn't come loose, and it acts as the thread protector by itself

Suppressed - non-issue. Very nice if you didn't loc-tite on a thread protector beforehand.

My Scorpions are all ~2 MOA at 25 yds with 124gr Speer Lawman and 147gr Gold Dots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Circle_10

That’s what I figured based on your original post, but I thought maybe it could have loosened up from a lot of shooting but it sounds like it was probably loose from the factory.

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Per CZ tech support, the thread protector will always come loose (WITHOUT loc-tite), the more rounds you shoot. Numerous reports of it fully detaching, rattling around inside the flash hider, and the next bullet hitting it and shooting it and the flash hider off the gun.

Funny story about this loose thread protector business....because of the frequently reported issues with it coming loose I opted to just preemptively buy an HB Industries 1/2x28 Micro-Comp and use that instead of the factory muzzle device. When I went to install it....my thread protector was so tight I had to use a strap wrench to get it off. I had previously removed it by hand once, then threaded it back on by hand, and fired maybe 50 rounds through the gun. So unless I somehow cross-threaded the thread protector, which I don’t think I did, I guess that small amount of shooting was enough to carbon-lock the protector in place?
Then, after putting the Micro-comp on, with its high temp O-ring that is supposed to keep it from backing off the threads, I find that it backs off anyway. So I’m going to have to try something else there I guess.

My Scorp is pretty accurate though, just dicking around with it with iron sights at 100 yards I’m surprised by how well it shoots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naphtali

Per CZ tech support, the thread protector will always come loose (WITHOUT loc-tite), the more rounds you shoot. Numerous reports of it fully detaching, rattling around inside the flash hider, and the next bullet hitting it and shooting it and the flash hider off the gun.

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That doesn't sound like anything that should be acceptable. Every firearm I own with a thread protector / flash hider doesn't have this problem.