On an ar-15, what split time (while maintaining accuracy) would you consider "mastery" of the ar-15. for instance I consider running 1/4 second splits on pistol to be mastery of pistol speed.
On an ar-15, what split time (while maintaining accuracy) would you consider "mastery" of the ar-15. for instance I consider running 1/4 second splits on pistol to be mastery of pistol speed.
Split times don’t mean sh*t in the real world soooooo.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Youngling, one must first learn before one may master.
As jpmuscle says, splits mean very little.
This is as good a place as any to start if looking for drills to use as benchmarks for skill progression:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ration-Project
Depends on the size and range of the target. In the day shooting IPSC I could run the el presidente in mid 3s only dropping 2-3 out of the A zone with the open pistol. Move the box back 10 more yards and I was lucky to do it in the mid 5s. Aiming takes a little time!
Anybody can be a split time master if the target is big and close enough. Gonna need to be more specific there.
I meant mastery of running splits/speed, not weapon manipulation or accuracy, but lets say 5 yards inside a 5" circle
If you spend your days shooting at paper split times matter more than when you’re shooting at people.
If I’m shooting at paper, I like to work toward solid accurate 1/4 second splits.
Shooting at bad guys I like 1/2 second split times.
The mind takes about 1/4 second to process information and react. Therefore 1/4 splits are too fast to process information in a defense situation.
It’s a lot easier to start shooting than it is to stop shooting.
No split time shows mastery.
A decent shooter can get below .2 with rifle or pistol, just from a trigger manipulation standpoint.
Op may be getting into competition, so splits may matter.
Targets change before shots too.
A human can only move so much so fast.
.2 is at best baseline, practicing at speed helps.
Having the ability to shoot fast is a tool to have that you may or may not use in a sd scenario.
In practice, The faster you shoot, the faster you have to process targets and whats going on... practicing fast paced shooting and decision-making cannot be a bad thing... but thats just the opinion of a paper-shooter so who knows.
No one here is thinking about the shot you fired after the target moved because you were unable to process it.
That round fired has to go somewhere.
The person firing that round is responsible for where that round impacts.
I prefer a 1/2 cadence so I can see reaction to hits and direction the target is going during engagement.
Mastering functional grip and stance will enable short split times.
Since what you're really addressing is the ability to place rounds into a relevant target in the shortest amount of time possible, I don't think that focusing on splits is where one determines "mastery".
But to answer the functional part of the question:
Pass the Viking Tactics "Half and Half" with a 5x8 index card.
V-Tac Half and Half Drill:
10 shots fired from the 20, 10, and 5 yard lines.
Target: "A" Zone or -0 Zone of a USPSA/IDPA target (I prefer 5x8 index card oriented vertically)
Starting Position: Carbine at Low Ready, loaded and ready, on "Safe".
Par times: 20 yards: 10 seconds, 10 yards: 5 seconds, 5 yards: 2.5 seconds.
Any shot after the par time is a miss.
Pass: all shots from each distance inside prescribed target inside par time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oYRn_llgo
What Jack said. A split is a metric useful in assessing and improving all the things happening within it. Low splits at increasingly complex distance and accuracy demands reflect better developed fundamentals. It's not a "combat" or "competitive" thing. It's a shooting thing applied to a context.
Brain processing speed is consistent with a half-second split. Noteworthy trainers and units teach .5 for deadly force application, and some excellent drills and standards are built around it. No harm in striving for better. You can always slow down and shoot well. The inverse isn't as true.
Know your gas pedal.
If someone thinks splits don't matter, they are saying rapid rounds on target don't matter as well. We can break that down another way, and assume those persons mean shooting a threat slowly is just as good as shooting them quickly (even if hits are all the same)....
Obviously the above doesn't fly, but all the info is doing is rephrasing the original post.
The answer is that splits do matter, as do hits. Anyone who comments different is having a hypothetical conversation, or isn't on the same sheet of music.
Dean,
I would humbly submit that without knowing distance engagement, splits tell nothing as there is no way to determine what we are actually talking about aside from time. Splits under .15 are approaching good in my mind, but I read the question with the idea of things being up close and personal. If Jack reads that same question and is thinking about 100 yard 6" steel plates, he will think I'm a loon. If Cory is thinking about an active mall shooter class he just taught in a mall filled with people, his mind is wondering why splits are even a thread topic. That doesn't make any of us wrong, nor any of us right, what is does make is things situationally dependent.
“Combat never sounded like competition splits. Unless you were shooting at the speed of panic.” From a guy who spent quite a while shooting at both people and paper.
Good quote, but my guess is that he and his guys had/have a high level of proficiency. The fact that most shooters don’t have much, if any, experience on a two way range lead me to assume that damn near every SD shooting would be at the speed of panic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've trained with people who have both. Many of them have killed...a lot of people...they each had a different pace, but on paper two things stood out:
-economy of motion
-accountability for every bullet that left the barrel.
-accuracy determined their pace, not the other way around.
Cory is talking about assessing the immediate results of each shot, not the result of a fast string of shots. I can tell you from the experiences I've had hunting small running varmints, there is a difference between the two. When assessing the result of each shot, the cadence is slower, but the shooter will stop shooting once the result desired is achieved. However, if assessing the result of a string of fire, very often I find that anywhere from one to three shots are fired after the desired results are achieved. Another thing I learned is, a shooter can always speed up the cadence of their shots, but almost never slows down. When shooting fast, shooters will stop shooting to switch to a slower cadence.
Watch how fast shooters clean a falling plate rack. Those who shoot fastest, move from one plate to the next without waiting to see if the plate falls or not. Those who do it best, know how to shoot each plate without missing. As the plates are designed to each fall with the same impact, a good shooter doesn't have to wait to assess each shot. Just follow form. Living targets are different.
Yes, the processing of information takes place before firing the first shot. (During a training class, it became crystal clear to me that shooting is the easy part. Knowing when to start and when to stop was the difficult part.) But a shooter needs to be assessing the results while shooting. In a situation where the desired results aren't always clear cut, it can take two or three shots before assessment becomes action when shooting a fast string. With falling plates (for example) the desired result is simple- All plates down and it's clear if a plate has fallen or not. When shooting badguys (not that I have any personal experience armed encounters) the desired result is to get the badguy to comply. However, assessing when that result is achieved takes a lot more assessing. Is the badguy actually done? Or are they just catching their breath? If he's done now, will he change his mind later? One can't just always default to shooting every badguy to death.
Cory has trains and studies under some very knowledgeable instructors. He studies and analyzes tactics as well as shooting.
With a plate rack, good shooters are already past the target after the shot, so they know they missed but keep going. Even if you call the miss on the break, its more efficient to maintain momentum through. Its not that they dont register the miss until they are on target.
Cadence change is something that needs to be practiced. Good shooters change cadence target to target as the requirements dictate to make the required hit.
Edit- if I can process and react in .2 seconds, and Im shooting .15 splits point blank at an attacker, I’m watching reaction while im shooting. At most the target moves unexpectedly for .15s that I dont account for when I fire another shot. I can only move my chest 4” in .15s. You dont aim once and black out while you dump 4 quick shots... it seemss like that is what is being suggested, but perhaps Im misunderstanding.
Im not suggesting that I would shoot that fast, I dont know. I would shoot as fast as I can get the hits needed. I think a lot of guys would be slower, and a lot of guys would be faster as Im an average (maybe high/average) shooter. But I do find the discussion interesting and beneficial to have.
Even in competition, they don’t really matter outside of extreme examples. If it takes you two seconds per round, then yeah, it matters.
If you’re able able to shoot all As all the time, you’re going too slow. It’s simple as that.
But let’s say you’re a moderately competent shooter and can shoot 0.25 splits and maintain A zones at a given range. What it the real gain? Reducing 0.05s off all splits doesn’t really do much in the overall scheme when it comes to scoring.
Unless it’s a stage with atrocious hosing and no movement, picking up a single extra alpha over a charlie means much more than 0.05s off every split.
Movement, transitions, gun handling, etc all have bigger gains. Big gains matter most. You’d have to be a top level guy for the splits to make a difference between first and second.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, if you are a master, you will be top of local matches and winning some. If you are a master of shooting your score will be noticably impacted by slow splits. OP is talking “mastery”. That wipes out your average guy getting As with .25 splits and 2 second reloads.
Edit- of the last 4 local matches I just looked up, top 2 were within 5 seconds. Sometimes slower time won. Shaving .05 off each shot for a 200 rd stage is 10 seconds. Thats 25% less time shooting.
On a side note. If you practice at .15, .2 feels slow- you are at 75%, and very methodical. If you practice at .2- that is your 100% and performance wont be there under pressure IME.
Delete-double
Have you ever looked at the splits of the top guys?
Say a stage is 30 rounds and all paper—-which is worse case scenario for “splits” to matter. That means 15 splits happen.
So shooter a completed stage in 45 seconds with .20 splits.
Shooter b completed stage in 45.75 seconds with .25 splits.
Shooter a has 28 alphas. Two Charlie.
Shooter b has 30 alphas.
Who wins?
Shooter A with 0.05s faster splits shoots 146 points and shoots a 3.24 hit factor.
Shooter be with 0.05 splits shoots 150 points and shoots 3.28 hit factor.
That’s about as extreme an example as I can think of. And honestly, 0.25 splits are pretty damn slow.
I’m a pretty novice shooter in the realm of USPSA and I can bit 0.17s splits on targets under 20 yards. Beyond they, I may be in the .22-.25 range.
The reality is most of the top level guys are burning down splits much faster than 0.16 if ever outside of open guns. And even then it’s not much faster than that. The top shooters win with maintaining high alpha counts and faster movements.
In my above scenario, shaving 0.1s off each transition would do way more for hit factor than the splits. Same with entering and leaving positions.
Shooters, even “masters” worry about transitions and movement way more than splits. Splits is amateur hour.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In response to your edit. The fact that oftentimes slower won is further evidence that you can’t outrun your score. In my example 0.05 which is a lifetime, allows for two more alphas, you win.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Edit
Well, you just stated you are a novice with .17 splits so I guess that answers the OP.
“Faster than .17” for pistol. (Or are you shooting pcc?)
“Have you ever looked at the splits of the top guys?” yes.
3.28 HF is as extreme as you can think of? You cant imagine a higher HF?
Have you ever seen hf of B class guys? This thread is about mastery.
Yes everything matters, but we are talking splits.
No - occasionally won. Not often. It was 1 in the 4.
The difference is when the guys shooting .15 splits get the same hits as the guys shooting .2 or .25 splits... and hitting the same reloads.
I mean I’ve heard Ben Stoeger say he shoots 0.2s splits at 10...so I dunno. Certainly a rifle can be faster than that.
I’ve also noticed the top shooters shoot more than 75% As.
I typically can pull a 0.7s draw to alpha at 7. I see other guys do a 1.5s. I can shoot slows splits in the scenario I mentioned and that more than covers it.
Points seem to be the decider more often than splits around here. Also 45s stages aren’t uncommon. I guess we just do more field work. I guess on classifiers the splits will have more influence but not who wins the match.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Who is tracking A's and C's in a competition with an AR15? USPSA Multigun and IMA are two on paper or one in the A-zone. Targets are either clean, FTN, or a complete miss. There is no an accumulation of A's, C's and D's that becomes a hit factor.
In competitions, splits with a rifle on close targets are not nearly as important as other things. Calling your shots, knowing you have 2 hits, and moving on to the next task without wasting time is quite a bit more important than the fractions of a seconds between a great split and an average split.
Nope not his 100% but he wins national titles going that fast ;)
Sounds like an odd club you have. What are your transitions on each of those ranges? I’ll bet two or three transitions trumps all the splits.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lots of good info being posted on this thread.
One of the biggest breakthroughs I had was accepting that visual patience is the key to fast, accurate and efficient shooting.
Splits aren’t nearly as important as shot calling, transitions or movement in USPSA. You have to be able to shoot fast, but the split time is dictated by the target difficulty and visual patience required for the follow up shots.
The only time I look at splits in training is to track my baseline timing for different distances and situations. Over time you will see improvements, but it’s not something I actively focus on.
Steve Anderson’s pod cast is a good source of information. Even if you’re not into competitive shooting I recommend checking it out.
As others have stated, splits mean very little. I can run .16 splits very easily (I've always had super-fast finger reflexes - aim, not so much)... can I do so while shooting as accurately as 1.0 splits? During transitions from target to target? Nope. Not even close. In that scenario, they're utterly worthless.
Split times mean nothing without context.