Never mind.
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You're acting like this is some cut and dry representation of a rifle and those asking questions are just being assholes. Sorry, but the folks backing this rifle with opinions like "If you are a prospective buyer and want to know all the details, then this might not be the AR for you." and "When you combine all the untold number of minute details that make rifles function easier, better, smoother, which by themselves you may never notice, you should be rewarded with a rifle that simply IS better, is more “correct” or ideal in reference to the weapons design and function." Just as SMH worthy as those asking rhetorical questions.
Fact is, not a single person here has been able to explain why this rifle is or is not better than other rifles that cost 2000 bucks or rifles that cost 1000 bucks less. Hodge is OCD on the fitment of their rifles? Awesome. What's that going to do for accuracy or durability or longevity? This is no different than any other brand plastering "BEST RIFLE EVER" in an ad on a gun mag with 0 supporting facts. Means a total of absolutely nothing.
Until these things are in folk's hands and they are able to provide details on what makes it worth it's price tag its image is going to sit here stagnantly with nothing but opinionated claims being made about it for or against. This is what happens when all the facts aren't available, pure speculation from all sides. Telling folks to shut their mouths is pointless.
I think we all need to chill out and wait until more have these rifles in their hands and the Mod 2 comes out, and/or more information is available. Honestly Im surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. I think its time to kill it.
The reason this has continued to fester, is that M4C has a history of boiling down guns, companies, claims, parts, etc to the finite statistics of what makes it better. If a claim is made, it better be backed up with stats, data, trials, photos, video, tests, etc. This site does not do well with the "intangibles" because we want answers as to why?
Now we have a rifle presented to us that claims to fill the niche of the "intangibles" and it claims to do it better. We then ask...why? The 14 page fallout has been the response.
There's a reason why this site espouses certain brands (BCM, Colt, Noveske, DD, etc). It's because we can see on paper clear facts as to why they are better or worth their price. On paper, the Hodge (for some) isn't adding up.
A side note on the debated caparisons to: porsche's, lambo's, lexus, rolex, Seiko, Ford/Chevy, etc...Skip all that. Why not just compare this $2k gun to other $2k guns. What does it do that puts it in that league?
The Hodge offerings may in fact be great rifles, certainly the SMEs here seem to speak very highly of the man behind the company, as well as the rifles he builds. Mentioned also was that something innovative may be coming from this company. What set off this entire thread is that the original post by a solid and trusted member here was somewhat (with all due respect to SMGlee) lacking. That doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. We should also consider the OP (SMGlee), this guy knows his stuff, and therefore, cut him a little slack.
I understand the "wtf!" this thread has generated, but let's consider that the "who's who" of this site has said these rifles and the owner are solid.
I have read a multitude of the comments in this thread. I have seen some who support the abilities of Jim Hodge and his competency in building very well functioning ARs. Like many who have questioned the specifics of the AR that SMGLee has presented, I too would like to know. I have seen the list of parts that were listed from Hodge's website and they are good quality parts. That is very important if you are going to build a high quality weapon. There are many home builders who do the same. I am one of those home builders. It is not hard to build one spending $2000. There are many manufacturers out there who build many of the same components and of the same materials. I recently built a really nice mid-length carbine and I wanted to do a high quality build. I did a lot of research and comparisons of various parts before I started buying them. After all was said and done, I ended up with a $1900 investment that works extremely well.
If the summation of all the parts renders a fully functional and dependable AR, then the mission is accomplished. It does not matter whether it cost $800 or $3000 to assemble. The important thing is the design fits the function without anything wasted. I am sure that Jim builds some fantastic ARs, but like I said, a lot of home builders do as well. We do it for ourselves while he does it for his business. I look forward to seeing the specs on this AR.
Deleted original post to avoid cluttering up the thread more.
@Scatman: I was mainly talking to the folks who were either whining that a lesser-known member would have been shut down, or those who whined about lack of information after some stuff had been posted already to answer their question. I stand by it - they need to shut up. Nobody likes whiners.
If it works, it works. Endorsement from trusted names here helps his case.
One thing I saw: Sometimes 9310 bolts are used. How does that compare with C158? I've read here in the past that 9310 doesn't work as well as C158.
Since I came to this forum several years ago, I've learned a tremendous amount about ARs. I'm eternally grateful to the SME's, industry reps and mods that make this place a fountain of AR knowledge. I've also attempted to add my knowledge in other areas where it might be beneficial and kept my pie hole shut when I didn't know something about the subject being discussed.
What we have here is a thread that was started on a high end, high dollar AR by a SME that does not adhere to the time honored formulas that SME's, industry reps and mods have heretofore utilized to impart information on new products, to include the OP. THAT, is the sole reason this thread has taken on a life of it's own. We've all been witness to the M4C party line that details matter, specs matter and materials matter. Suddenly we're being told "trust us". Had the thread started in typical SME, industry reps or mod fashion, that would've happened without question. That you can't tell what the difference is speaks volumes.
You and several other lurkers out there have come out of the woodwork to castigate some of us for asking obvious questions. Why and to what end? Either add something meaningful to the discussion, ask a relevant question or consider going back to lurker mode.
I've owned about a dozen AR's to this point and still own several that I consider to be better than those that have gone before them. That is a direct result of this forum. I may or may not ever purchase a Hodge, but I continue to learn. After 14 pages, I still haven't figured out what happened here. That is a shame. :(
Glocktogo: Did exactly that in my last post. Not here to add more whining; just vented frustration. I read a lot here and have learned a lot here.
I had to stop reading this thread many pages ago, but this is my input. I maintain and assemble a lot of rifles professionally and have been doing so for many years and it is no secret that I also do some consulting. Been armoring and smithing for a lot of years. Been on the job, shooting and teaching even longer. I have come up with a few highly reliable recipes for success, from sourcing some of THE best parts in the industry for what I consider to be a top of the line rifle for hard use. A rifle with amazing accuracy, extreme reliability and some of the softest hitting rifles that I have ever handled, no matter who built that rifle. I prefer to assemble and use my own weapons that I assemble as opposed to even starting with an off the shelf, top of the line, manufactured rifle. I have no lack of people wanting me to perform work and not just on this platform. I constantly have to decline far far more work than I can perform. I just don't have the time and I cannot, nor do I wish to broach into that class of FFL. I have no doubt that that Mr. Hodge has far more relationships and has much more inquiry than I do.
Having said all of this, even getting better pricing than retail, smaller outfits don't get the larger quantity pricing. I do know how much parts alone cost for variations on the rifles that I build and generally understand pricing in relation to volume. I also know how much my time is worth as in hourly rate. If I am taking the time to source parts and taking the time to check seemingly small details, like bolt matching, measuring chambers, head spacing, doing small adjustments to barrel / upper fitment, refinish, dimpling / drilling / pinning / blind pinning / welding, overall assembly and function. Depending on certain parts options selected by the purchaser, you can rest assured that I am going to charge you somewhere in the upper teens to 2K range for a complete rifle made from the parts that I source. Is this overly complex in the grand scheme of weapons assembly? Is most of it not a problem, like head spacing, chamber sizes? No, it isn't when you have quality sourcing, however it is still a part of the quality control process where attention to detail is done and that takes time. This is all from off the shelf parts. Now if I had spec'd my own parts made specific for my rifles, where there may be more fitment or engineering involved that I put into that rifle in say barrels, extensions, bolts, or uppers and lowers, you can bet that cost gets passed on at least until volume allows for adjusted pricing.
Yes M4 assembly is not exactly like starting with over sized blanks of a 1911, doing a hand fit slide to frame, hand fitting parts and checkering, finish etc, but AR/M4 assembly still does involve time and expertise and my time and expertise is not going to be cheap, especially when I can get paid as much or more to do something else. I did not obtain that knowledge overnight and neither did Mr. Hodge. Could people with drill presses, welders and some skill perform these things at home themselves and save some money? Sure they can, so have at it. For those who don't have a desire to DIY it and want Mr. Hodges name on it, well then I am sure his hourly rate justifies the price. I know what my time is worth and I don't have others wanting some "skin in the game".