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Precision Armament EFAB first impressions
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Looking at the pictures on their site, I'm intrigued. Is it supposed to do something significantly from the AFAB? I was thiiiiiiiss close to putting money down on an AFAB or a Griffin flash comp.
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That looks pretty awesome.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BrigandTwoFour
Looking at the pictures on their site, I'm intrigued. Is it supposed to do something significantly from the AFAB? I was thiiiiiiiss close to putting money down on an AFAB or a Griffin flash comp.
I spoke to them over the phone and they stated that it doesn't have an expansion chamber like the AFAB mini, so it should have a very minimal effect on gas system performance/function and cause very little aditional gas system pressure as it is essentially a straight-through design (think a non-baffled, flow-through automobile muffler). Further, its design incorporates divergent gas "nozzles" as opposed to straight holes as in the AFAB mini. The machining operations are quite complex (as best seen in the photographs of the sectioned EFAB on their website) and it is designed to provide flash suppression that is nearly on-par with the A2. We shall see, but the conceptual science seems sound.
Like the gen-II M4SD-II, it does not have ports on the top or the bottom and, to my eyes, appears symmetrical in that manner. Which could be good for me because I was getting a little muzzle dip with the Lantac DGN556B (though this wouldn't be the case for most guns).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BufordTJustice
I spoke to them over the phone and they stated that it doesn't have an expansion chamber like the AFAB mini, so it should have a very minimal effect on gas system performance/function and cause very little aditional gas system pressure as it is essentially a straight-through design (think a non-baffled, flow-through automobile muffler). Further, its design incorporates divergent gas "nozzles" as opposed to straight holes as in the AFAB mini. The machining operations are quite complex (as best seen in the photographs of the sectioned EFAB on their website) and it is designed to provide flash suppression that is nearly on-par with the A2. We shall see, but the conceptual science seems sound.
Like the gen-II M4SD-II, it does not have ports on the top or the bottom and, to my eyes, appears symmetrical in that manner. Which could be good for me because I was getting a little muzzle dip with the Lantac DGN556B (though this wouldn't be the case for most guns).
did you ask him why he is making a MAMS and TT love child?
http://precisionarmament.com/product...r-compensator/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Digital_Damage
I didn't. But I'm sure you could. Next question.
Also, it's not similar to either. I've owned an AFAB mini and have seen and shot the TT and seen in person the MAMS. They are all clearly distinct from eachother in design and execution.
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Just ran 100 rounds through the EFAB. I'm really liking it. I have an 18" barrel and shot it back to back with an LMT 16" agency carbine with an A2, using Federal XM193 55gr. The EFAB was just as pleasant with regard to muzzle blast for the shooter. 45 degrees back it's only very slightly louder, but the pressure is identical.
If you're sensitive to the over pressure of most brakes, this is your best option.
Also, it's a very neutral brake. Zero muzzle dip or muzzle rise. Finally found what I was looking for in that regard. Rearward recoil reduction is reduced as compared to the Lantac, but it's still a softy.
Lastly, it generates noticeably less back pressure in the gas system than the Lantac DGN556b. I opened my SLR Rifleworks Sentry 7 two notches to the 8th position from fully closed in order to get function on steel cased Tula 55gr and lock back on PMC bronze.
It was mid day in Orlando so I had no realistic way to evaluate flash, but I couldn't see any for whatever that's worth. I'll try and take it out to my next night shoot and report back.
EDIT: The blank space between the apertures on the bottom of the EFAB is wider than the space on the top.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BufordTJustice
I didn't. But I'm sure you could. Next question.
Also, it's not similar to either. I've owned an AFAB mini and have seen and shot the TT and seen in person the MAMS. They are all clearly distinct from eachother in design and execution.
You have got to be joking.... Not similar? That is just nonsense.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Digital_Damage
So what is the point of your question? Some implied malfeasance on the part of Precision Armament? Intellectual theft or infringement? I'm sure KAC appreciates your concern.
Precision Armament is making a muzzle devices that each incorporate multiple functional features. Other devices on the market may share one or two of those features, but the Precision Armament devices are direct knock-offs of nothing.
To imply that they are copying, stealing, or have no right to do what they are doing is nonsense.
BTW: Clearly not a TT and MAMS lovechild... that lovechild would retail at over $400.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
elephantrider
So what is the point of your question? Some implied malfeasance on the part of Precision Armament? Intellectual theft or infringement? I'm sure KAC appreciates your concern.
Precision Armament is making a muzzle devices that each incorporate multiple functional features. Other devices on the market may share one or two of those features, but the Precision Armament devices are direct knock-offs of nothing.
To imply that they are copying, stealing, or have no right to do what they are doing is nonsense.
BTW: Clearly not a TT and MAMS lovechild... that lovechild would retail at over $400.
Are you serious...
You really approve of someone taking the features of KAC's hard work + RnD money that is required to thoroughly test those features. Just to have someone slap something together something that blurs the lines enough as to not violate IP theft and throw it on the market?
You are right, it is clearly not worth $400. Not made of inconel, not tested as thoroughly and no real money spent on the fluid dynamics testing (that has already been done by KAC).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Digital_Damage
Are you serious...
You really approve of someone taking the features of KAC's hard work + RnD money that is required to thoroughly test those features. Just to have someone slap something together something that blurs the lines enough as to not violate IP theft and throw it on the market?
You are right, it is clearly not worth $400. Not made of inconel, not tested as thoroughly and no real money spent on the fluid dynamics testing (that has already been done by KAC).
I'm a huge fan of KAC and you're 100% incorrect. Feel free to vacate my thread or a mod is going to intervene.
Understand?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BufordTJustice
I'm a huge fan of KAC and you're 100% incorrect. Feel free to vacate my thread or a mod is going to intervene.
Understand?
100% incorrect about what? The muzzle device has the same cuts and machining as a TT (you just can't deny that), with the form factor and flash suppression end as a MAMS.
What are the mods going to Intervene in? I'm bring a logical point of view about the company that could provide a consumer insight who they are purchasing a product from. This is a registered members discussion thread, I'm sure you could pay to have a sub forum where you can provide your one side of a conversation if that is what you are looking for.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Digital_Damage
You have got to be joking....
Nobody HAS to be joking.
Jot down in clear language the accusation you are leveling, PM it to me along with the technical diagrams in your possession which bear it out. Then...
...I'll forward it to the two KAC employees we have on staff...
...who have notably NOT stepped aboard somebody else's thread, leveled a finger and screamed "J'ACCUSE...! at any companies or individuals at high octaves.
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I ran another 130 rounds through the EFAB. Really digging it.
I took a video on my Galaxy S4 in HD. Waiting for Vimeo to process it. Once it's done I'll post a link.
Ammo being fired is 55gr Independence 5.56x45mm. This stuff is HOT.
Spoiler: the flash is negligible.
http://vimeo.com/107965855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
JSantoro
...I'll forward it to the two KAC employees we have on staff...
...who have notably NOT stepped aboard somebody else's thread, leveled a finger and screamed "J'ACCUSE...! at any companies or individuals at high octaves.
The thing about KAC that I really respect, is that even if they did think someone was copying off their paper, they'd never say it in an open forum.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BufordTJustice
I ran another 130 rounds through the EFAB. Really digging it.
I took a video on my Galaxy S4 in HD. Waiting for Vimeo to process it. Once it's done I'll post a link.
Ammo being fired is 55gr Independence 5.56x45mm. This stuff is HOT.
Spoiler: the flash is negligible.
http://vimeo.com/107965855
BufordT, you've got to find someone to hold your camera! Thanks for sharing though. How is the flash with that ammo through the AFAB, BC, etc? Can you see much difference with the EFAB?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
mtdawg169
BufordT, you've got to find someone to hold your camera! Thanks for sharing though. How is the flash with that ammo through the AFAB, BC, etc? Can you see much difference with the EFAB?
I do! I actually asked a random asshole and he turned me down FLAT.
The flash was way less than the Lantac or the BC. It might have been less than an A2. This lot is flashy stuff even from my 18" barrel, but the EFAB tamed it well. As you can see, the flash is basically not there.
I also shot it with CBC 55gr 5.56x45mm and Tula 55gr .223. Same results even at the end of the 130 rounds session. Virtually no flash to speak of.
I'm very pleased.
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I have one on my Colt 6945. I haven't got it out yet, too busy. I talked to Matt at PA, good folks and I like the company, I don't want to wade in on the KAC stuff, however they PA, treated me right.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
mildot
I have one on my Colt 6945. I haven't got it out yet, too busy. I talked to Matt at PA, good folks and I like the company, I don't want to wade in on the KAC stuff, however they treated me right.
There is nothing too wade into. Just the imaginary B.S. in one member's mind. Don't even bother bringing that noise up anymore. KAC is a company beyond reproach and an industry leader in quality and innovation.
I agree that the folks at PA are quality and are running a solid operation from what I can tell. Both the AFAB mini, their muzzle shim kit, and now the EFAB have been superbly machined and finished products for fair prices. PA makes no extravagant claims and their products perform as advertised in my experience.
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Quote:
I agree that the folks at PA are quality and are running a solid operation from what I can tell. Both the AFAB mini, their muzzle shim kit, and now the EFAB have been superbly machined and finished products for fair prices. PA makes no extravagant claims and their products perform as advertised in my experience.
Well I considered the KAC comment as "hear say" LOL, the maching and fit & finish is incredible on the EFAB, I"m testing(running a Griffin Armament M4SD Flash/Comp) along side the PA. I was a machinist in a previous life so the precision on the EFAB is outstanding, I was impressed. Matt told me to "wait out" on the new MB since the EFAB was designed more for the SBR, good advice BTW. Cheers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
mildot
Well I considered the KAC comment as "hear say" LOL, the maching and fit & finish is incredible on the EFAB, I"m testing(running a Griffin Armament M4SD Flash/Comp) along side the PA. I was a machinist in a previous life so the precision on the EFAB is outstanding, I was impressed. Matt told me to "wait out" on the new MB since the EFAB was designed more for the SBR, good advice BTW. Cheers
I would really like to hear your impressions in this thread if you don't mind.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
BufordTJustice
I would really like to hear your impressions in this thread if you don't mind.
Sure I'm freeing up some time next week, so I'll post my impressions. No worries.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
mildot
Sure I'm freeing up some time next week, so I'll post my impressions. No worries.
Outstanding sir. Thank you in advance. I'm shooting my agency qual on Monday but am going on a cruise after that. Won't have time behind the trigger until November.
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Can anybody test it on an sbr?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Neville
Can anybody test it on an sbr?
I have it installed on my Colt 6945, which is a 10.3.
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Would like to hear about this form Buford and Sapper. Looking for a new device for the 11.5.
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Ran my agency qual on Monday with Federal XM193 55gr. It's a modified Navy qual IIRC. 21 rounds at distances from 100 to 25 yards, on the jog in between each course of fire. The EFAB is such a neutral device, I can just cradle the KMR in my open hand and the gun stays put. The Dragon has a small expansion chamber before you get to its three blast baffles (chambers) and this caused me to run less gas using the EFAB on my SLR Sentry 7 gas block. The Dragon's upward facing ports also drove my muzzle down slightly during strings of rapid fire (think prone at 50 for time). I could even feel it when using the mag as a mono-pod....the gun would rock back and forth with the DGN556 whereas the gun just works gently front-to-back with the EFAB, staying flat.
For me, the EFAB is what I need. No over-pressure in the gas system as compared to brakes with an expansion chamber (I'm two settings more open on my AGB than with the Dragon, which isn't that bad), either.
I asked the guys who ran qual with me how bad the blast was, as we all shot at the 50 and 75 under a large metal-roof over-hang, which was sitting on a concrete slab. If any of you come to SWAT RoundUp, that is my agency and the range that I use (West PPC, if you recall). Shooting even an A2 under the overhang will wake you up, and the EFAB seemed no different. I shot it at 0830 hours, so it was still pretty dark due to cloud cover and the sun wasn't peeking over the East berm yet. From my perspective, no flash. None.
I asked the 5 other guys who shot my qual about it....I even "warned" them that I had a new brake (to a chorus of "Awww F*CK! REALLY!?!?"). None of them said they could tell the difference between it and the A2s on their agency issued LMT 16" carbines. One of them even went old school and used a pair of 9mm casings as "ear protection". He was right next to me (and always bitched about my Lantac and even my FSC556 on my old BCM 14.5" middy) and he forgot about it until I asked him if he noticed anything. High praise, indeed.
I'm sure the EFAB MUST be louder on the 90-degree axis than an A2....that's just physics. But it appears to be a winner in that category and additional pressure/flash is minimal. I continue to be pleased with the EFAB....finally a device that does what the BC promises without nearly doubling your gas system pressure!
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Thank you for the great and continued reporting.
Any chance of night shooting or even video in the future?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColtSeavers
Thank you for the great and continued reporting.
Any chance of night shooting or even video in the future?
No prob. It's all anecdotal at this point.
Night shooting won't happen any sooner than November.
Also, I should note that I paid FULL RETAIL for my EFAB. No LEO discount or any other promo. So my observations and value statements are based off that price.
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I was seriously considering the AFAB but now that this is out I'll be looking at it more. I wish more people were using them so I could see some high round count reviews. It seems that everyone that has one likes them but hasn't put to many rounds through it. Thanks for the review Buford, I look forward to more updates on it.
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Is anyone running a promo? I feel an EFAB in my future and if I could save a few bucks...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
fixit69
Is anyone running a promo? I feel an EFAB in my future and if I could save a few bucks...
I don't know of any. Maybe email Precision Armament and ask for a forum promo? It's worth a shot.
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Will try...
Will report back
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BTJ, seems from your video the muzzle lifts and goes right after each shot. Does it do this when shooting with support hand on handguard as well? I ASSume you were shooting one handed with support holding camera.
Thanks, Mark
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This is a general question, but it pertains to this particular muzzle device:
Why do brake manufacturers put tines on the end of the brake when the gases and flash exit the sides? Is it for looks?
I have seen and used a few different "hybrid" brake/FH units and none of the hide flash with the tines on the end.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
azoutdoorsman
This is a general question, but it pertains to this particular muzzle device:
Why do brake manufacturers put tines on the end of the brake when the gases and flash exit the sides? Is it for looks?
I have seen and used a few different "hybrid" brake/FH units and none of the hide flash with the tines on the end.
Gas still escapes through the front of muzzle devices before and after the bullet no matter how small the diameter of the exit hole(s) and that gas can still produce flash (ETA: in front of the muzzle device). The tines reduce the aforementioned gas' ability to ignite, or at least as much, in front of the muzzle device, which can occlude or otherwise hamper the shooter's sight/optics/lights/etc...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColtSeavers
Gas still escapes through the front of muzzle devices before and after the bullet no matter how small the diameter of the exit hole(s) and that gas can still produce flash (ETA: in front of the muzzle device). The tines reduce the aforementioned gas' ability to ignite, or at least as much, in front of the muzzle device, which can occlude or otherwise hamper the shooter's sight/optics/lights/etc...
I understand all that. What I don't understand is why flash coming from the circumference of a device is acceptable, but from the front is not.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
azoutdoorsman
This is a general question, but it pertains to this particular muzzle device:
Why do brake manufacturers put tines on the end of the brake when the gases and flash exit the sides? Is it for looks?
I have seen and used a few different "hybrid" brake/FH units and none of the hide flash with the tines on the end.
ColtSeavers pretty much answered this one already, but I will respond again since you decided to blow past his answer instead of thinking about what he posted. Short answer: No, they are not just for looks, they help to hide muzzle flash. How do you know that the tines on the devices that you observed were doing nothing? Did you cut or grind the tines off to compare the flash with and without the tines? A device may have some or even a pronounced flash off of the sides of the comp/brake portion vs. what is coming out of the muzzle, but that doesn't mean the tines are doing nothing. Did it occur to you that since you see the flash on the sides and not off of the end/muzzle of the device that the tines are in fact doing something, and possibly doing it well? Perhaps the flash off of the muzzle would be more pronounced without the tines? Keep in mind that each device is it's own story and be careful not to make apples to oranges comparisons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
azoutdoorsman
I understand all that. What I don't understand is why flash coming from the circumference of a device is acceptable, but from the front is not.
Acceptable to who? An acceptable level of flash is entirely up to the end user to decide. If you want zero flash look at pure flash hiders like the B.E. Meyers, or the Smith Vortex. The stated goal from those devices is near zero muzzle flash. The EFAB and AFAB are, as you stated, hybrid devices. You are trading off some additional flash in exchange for some braking/compensation with a hybrid. Different hybrid devices each have different flash and compensating characteristics. Pick the one with acceptable flash level for you. In the case of the EFAB, the flash off the sides of the device is pretty minimal, so I don't think it would be an issue for most users. If zero flash is the only acceptable option go with the pure flash hider. Hybrid devices are an attempt to balance the best features of comps and flash hiders.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
elephantrider
ColtSeavers pretty much answered this one already, but I will respond again since you decided to blow past his answer instead of thinking about what he posted. Short answer: No, they are not just for looks, they help to hide muzzle flash. How do you know that the tines on the devices that you observed were doing nothing? Did you cut or grind the tines off to compare the flash with and without the tines? A device may have some or even a pronounced flash off of the sides of the comp/brake portion vs. what is coming out of the muzzle, but that doesn't mean the tines are doing nothing. Did it occur to you that since you see the flash on the sides and not off of the end/muzzle of the device that the tines are in fact doing something, and possibly doing it well? Perhaps the flash off of the muzzle would be more pronounced without the tines? Keep in mind that each device is it's own story and be careful not to make apples to oranges comparisons.
Acceptable to who? An acceptable level of flash is entirely up to the end user to decide. If you want zero flash look at pure flash hiders like the B.E. Meyers, or the Smith Vortex. The stated goal from those devices is near zero muzzle flash. The EFAB and AFAB are, as you stated, hybrid devices. You are trading off some additional flash in exchange for some braking/compensation with a hybrid. Different hybrid devices each have different flash and compensating characteristics. Pick the one with acceptable flash level for you. In the case of the EFAB, the flash off the sides of the device is pretty minimal, so I don't think it would be an issue for most users. If zero flash is the only acceptable option go with the pure flash hider. Hybrid devices are an attempt to balance the best features of comps and flash hiders.
I know because I bought different versions from PWS, Rainer, BC, Spikes with and without tines, and set up long exposure photos at night.
The hybrids with the small holes around the circumference hide flash decently without tines. But they still had more flash than a lowly A2, which is technically a comp since the ports only face upward. The Rainer and PWS with larger ports and forward tines do dick all to hide flash.
Maybe I'll get an EFAB and do the same thing pre and post tine-ectomy. My guess would be the tines add no function.