Arose from a discussion about various companies
Arose from a discussion about various companies
I would like to reply with specifics, but I shouldn't. CHF barrels can vary wildly between the specifications required. I do believe a good CL CHF barrel suits certain end users well. Others may be suited better with other methods of rifling.
FN - Ruger - DD are the companies I am aware of the use CHF in the US. There may be others I am unaware of and I'm sure if there are, others will chime in with their names.
that's what I've heard, and had thought all other companies get theirs pretty much from FN
Yes, and there's more than those.
PSA, Noveske, Centurion and BCM BFH hammer forged barrels come from FN to the individual company's specifications.
Sig is entering the CHF manufacturing too.
To their specs is interesting. Noveske touts double CL THICKNESS. I always liked that concept. How much are they finished when Noveske , BCM gets their barrels? Do they do another 10% of the work, 0%, etc? Do they do anything to change accuracy?
Do you have any experience with the accuracy of a 2x chrome lined barrel? I know chrome lining has a small affect on accuracy, as it somewhat dulls the lands and groves when applied. I'm thinking 2x might double that affect and perhaps be enough for more people to notice? I know you do a lot of LD shooting.
Not really. CHF barrels are pounded around a mandrel and mandrels are expensive. That means if a company wants a different bore, they have to pay to have a different mandrel made. They can increase their profits by simply using the same mandrel a everyone else.
Companies could specify different dimensions for the chamber, but some chambers are formed by the mandrel during the forging process. Others by a chamber reamer. It would be cheaper to specify a standard chamber and use the same tooling.
Contours can be more easily changed. But again, a different contour requires a different set-up which take time. A company is going to have to pay for the labor of writing a different program for different contours.
The same is true with material type. A company isn;t going to save money by specifying 4140 or 4130 steel when FN is getting a discount on the tons of 4150 CMV it purchases. Companies will also have to pay more when FN has to stop a run of 4150 CMV barrels to turn out a few in 4140.
So yes, FN will build barrels to each company's specs but the company will have to pay more for less.
So, where i the biggest difference going to be in CHF barrels? Port size and crown. The rest is going to be pretty much the same across the board no matter what company orders FN CHF barrels
And none of them offer an actual hammer forged chamber?
Why does this matter?
Real talk.
I think only to make informed buying decisions. JG and I were talking barrels and the conversation came up " does it really matter what CHF barrel you buy ? " I said I like DD, NOVESKE , COLT but does it really matter.......
I've learned a few things from this thread.
In an ideal world, mandrels would last forever. A slightly blemished mandrel may not make the cut from one manufacturer, but may in others, depending on what the blemish is. Some contours seem questionable, most are alright. Gas ports can vary by a wide margin. Spec's on the crown can vary. Spec's on the finish quality can vary. Etc.
Many variables are possible, from what started out very similar in the begining to what the end product ends up being.
So, question is... is the pricier vs cheaper relabeled FN barrel a different grade?
And where do all the ruger chf barrels go?
Spike's and PSA for sure. Speculation that BCM gets them from FN as well.
Daniel Defense makes their own CHF in house.
Image didn't load Molon - care to repost?
Thanks Molon for the posting. Precision is a part of barrel analysis that can include other factors. The information is not out of line from other sources on lower round count barrels. Higher round counts can see some changes, but most would generally agree with your results.
Those are all CHF, while the Afghan is SS with the same profile as light I think.
ETA - I was only half right.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Spikes had DD and then switched to FN. They had Lothar as an option for a while.
The Noveske Afghan is a medium-contour barrel. It's the same contour that is found on the 16" Noveske Recon barrel and 18" Noveske SPR barrel.
Noveske Recon barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/3j...3y49dujnhn.jpg
Noveske SPR barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/w6...e2jqpm5871.jpg
Noveske N4 "Light" barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/mm...p2o0rwpbnz.jpg
Noveske "Skinny" barrel
https://app.box.com/shared/static/w3...64u3sg3jgv.jpg
....
FN builds barrels to spec. Not all barrels that come from FN are chrome-lined the same way, or made of the same steel. Barrel profile and gas port goes without saying.
Colt Canada (Diemaco) has a Hammer Forge. I have seen a KAC employee post that this is where KAC forged barrels come from.
I have never seen any one state where BCM barrels are forged, I would love to know, and I would also like to know why it is such closely guarded information.
LWRCi barrels are from Rugers hammer forge.
I would love to know those specifics, but thats your choice. However would you be willing to share why you don't want to give out that information? I find it interesting that for some companies there is so much secrecy around who forges their barrels and others companies are very very forthcoming with the info.
Are any of those barrels posted by Molon 2X chrome lined? If so that pretty much answers my question above.....
"I would also like to know why it is such closely guarded information"
Would you spend 60K for a Lexus if they advertised that it came off of the same assembly line as a Toyota?
I would, I mean isn't that whats so great about a Lexus? Luxury, but with toyota know how and reliability. Now if it came off of a KIA line I'd turn away from the purchase.
Thats the thing about the FN manufacturing, some companies advertise this, which I think is makes sense, I would too. I know FN makes a great barrel, so when I see that advertised I am inclined to buy that barrel. There are variables like gas port size and requested QC to keep in mind.
To me unless you are hiding something negative whats to lose by disclosing this information? Is BCM hiding something?
You do realize that a change in Quality Control is a change in the production process which adds to production costs which means changing to a lower quality process costs more not less.
It may be that a company buying barrels from FN have lower Quality Assurance standards than other companies. It could be that a company is willing to buy a barrel that FN would consider a blem or is a reject. But you can bet FN had good QC processes in place to eliminate rejects because rejected parts add to production costs and reduce profits. It just doesn't make sense that a vendor would ask for a change in specs that will reduce the performance of the product when those changes will add to production costs
No, I disagree with you. I do not mean change in manufacturing process, which is what you are saying. I mean eliminating testing and inspection procedures and lowering the threshold for letting finish blemishes through.
Which comes full circle to my point of saying who makes your barrel unless you are ashamed of who it is. Regardless of spec a good company is not going to make a crap barrel. Regardless of spec a crap company will struggle to make a good barrel.
But honestly none of the forging companies are bad. FN seems to be the best, so maybe if you don't use FN you would still try to conceal that, but still to me I see it as silly.
Car companies subcontract much of a car, all those parts are stamped with that sub contractors name. Bosch for instance, or continental, are big names in the VW group. The car companies name may be on it too, but they don't hide the manufacturers name. So why do some, but not most, conceal it? Some don't advertise it, but BCM has done a good job of all together concealing it.
There could be many reasons for the secrecy and it likely varies by company.
- There "could" be an NDA as part of the contract to MFG. Court isn't where you want to spend your profits.
- In the case of BCM, "IF" they source their barrels from Colt Canada, what do you think that does to their "Bravo Company USA" branding? - Not saying this is the case, but if it were my company I wouldn't let that information leak out. Heck, it would even be a stretch for them to use FN and maintain their USA branding from a consumer and marketing perspective.
- Both or any of the above reasons are quite valid and you should either accept it and move on or shop elsewhere.
To be 100% crystal clear: I have no knowledge of, nor do I care, where BCM sources its barrels from, this is purely a speculative example as to why a company might withhold this kind of information.
As to auto's....Lexus is nothing more than a re-badged Toyota. It is a brand name and most of the components, that matter, are identical and 2x the cost. Again, branding and marketing.
There is a difference between the barrel manufacturer's quality control and the buyer's (BCM, PSA, Centurion, Noveske) rejection rate.
THIS IS PURLY AN EXAMPLE NOT FACT:
BCM orders 1000 BFH barrels from FN.
BCM rejects 400 of them for whatever reason BCM has to reject them.
FN in turn calls PSA and says "Hey PSA, we have 400 barrels here that you guys can have for a discounted price."
PSA says "Send those sombitches!" and has a huge sale.
FN engraves PSA on the BCM rejected barrels and ships them out.
It doesn't really happen like that. I don't think that most manufacturers are worried about their own specifications, they worry about others spec's from the same source. Naming the source implies to some level the same part, when it really doesn't. It may also not be beneficial if a manufacturer finds an improved source with the implication of it being sourced elsewhere. Being married to another company in the component level, real or implied carries both benefits and negatives. It seems wise for most to error on the side of caution.