You mean something like an unintentional slam-fire due to a mechanical failure in your fire control group? :D
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The notion that the regulations regarding identification of NFA weapons is "open for interpretation" is simply not true. The fact that some folks misunderstand what is written (ATF bureaucrats among them) is not the same as there being real ambiguity in the regs. There is not; they are clear in what is required.
Relying on letters, handbooks, FAQs, etc. is foolish. If you can't read and understand the regs, pay someone who can to do it for you. Or at least acknowledge that you may not be understanding what is written.
If you don't care, don't think you'll ever be caught, don't think it's a big deal anyway, that's fine. But that has no relevance to the question being discussed.
After re-reading the letter at the top of the page, and reading most of title 27 section 479. I would like to point out what the author was "remiss" about. There was a change in the regulation on Jan 30, 2002 as follows:
Now again read the letter and see how you understand now. I am not giving anyone legal advise, and as I have said before this is my understanding of the requirement. You will have to make your own choice about engraving your weapon.Quote:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
KHC3,
Just because someone has a different opinion on something it does not make them "foolish". The difference between me and you is that I am telling people what I do and why, and you are telling people this is your way and they are foolish to do it any other way.
No, they don't.
Your Form 1 says "MarkM" applied to "make" it and that information is not marked anywhere on that weapon, as required by Federal Law.
That's called, "Game, Set, and Match" for Mr. ATF Agent.
And yes, you HAVE said it 100 times. You've also been wrong 100 times. Sorry, but the regulations are quite clear and written in plain English that even a 6th grade child could understand. There simply IS NO ABIGUITY IN THE REGULATIONS. None. Every term used in them is well-defined and there isn't one bit of wiggle-room left for interpretation.
The one area where you ARE correct is that it most likely wouldn't result in prosecution. Rather, they'd just give you the option of surrendering your NFA weapon as contraband and not press charges, which you would happily accept to avoid a stint in pound-me-in-the-ass prison. I'd hardly call being out the value of your NFA weapon a "win" for your side. More like surrender in the face of certain defeat.
As for how it could happen, Murphy's Law is all it takes. You happen to be at the range when ATF also happens to be in attendance, doing a routine inspection. The new guy, looking to "make his bones," notices you and your SBR on the firing line and walks over to make sure you're legal. He's already got a hard-on, thinking he's got an unregistered SBR on his hands, so he goes over your stuff with a fine-tooth comb and finds none of the required markings. While I admit it is a very small chance, I don't risk felony convictions or the loss of a multi-thousand dollar weapon on "small chances." Particularly when $30 of engraving eliminates the possibility forever.
But since you claim there is room for interpretation in the regulations, here's the Pepsi Challenge for you: quote the regs and show us where this abiguity lies in them. I will fully admit there are large areas of the NFA where I'm totally clueless (the whole HK "push pin" thing being but one example) but this isn't one of them. They're quoted earlier in this thread or can be readily found online, via Google, at websites run by the Federal Government. Take your best shot and prove me wrong.
I said relying on something other than the actual regulations was foolish. If you developed your different opinion from reading the regs, I wouldn't call that foolish. I would still think you were in error, though.
For example, the NFA Handbook you cited is instructing people how to fill out the Form 1. It does not purport to be a substitute for the CFR, nor a complete explanation of everything one needs to do when making and registering a NFA firearm. (And it's horribly written).
In the same way that it is important for posters to acknowledge that some among us have more real world experience (and even more inate ability) in marksmanship, gunfighting, gunsmithing, etc., it might behoove some to acknowledge that reading legal writings is not something everyone does with equal facility.
That being said, I can only say that the regulations require the maker of a NFA firearm to mark it with his name & city/state.
If your research leads you to a different conclusion, do what you think is best.
Much as I'd like to read otherwise, I can't read the letter of the law in such a way as to disprove khc3. I want to, believe me (for purely aesthetic reasons, I dislike any more text markings on the receiver than is necessary), but I can't see it.
Under § 479.11 - "Meaning of terms" (source)
If I'm assembling a weapon that would fall under NFA rules, I am the "maker" of it.Quote:
Make. This term and the various derivatives thereof shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this part), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.
Under § 479.102 - "How must firearms be identified?" (source)
Quote:
A) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
The parts germane to this discussion are bolded, and will now be repeated, stand-alone, for clarity and emphasis.
You, as a maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
1) Model
2) Caliber or gauge
3) Your name (and sometimes the name of a foreign manufacturer or maker)
4) In the case of a domestically-made firearm, the city and State where you as the maker made the firearm
Doesn't matter how many times I read it, looks like it's still telling me I'm going to have to mark up my gun if I want to do it legally. Thank you to, khc3, mtk, and others who've been insisting on doing the engravings as the correct way.
-B
And it is important to remember that anytime one reads the word "firearm" in Part 479, it refers ONLY to NFA firearms. Please see the definition of firearm in http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr479.11.htm. That fact confuses folks who think they didn't "make" the firearm, Colt or Bushmaster did; they just registered it.
So, for the purposes of Part 479, any action which produces a new NFA firearm, even something as simple as placing a short-barreled upper on an AR lower, constitutes "making" a "firearm," and the person who does so is now a "maker."
Exactly.
Title I and Title II are totally different animals.
Meaning, the Title I firearm you used to make your Title II firearm is barely different from a toaster as far as the law is concerned. About the only exception to this is that the regulations state that you should use the Title I serial number when registering a firearm as a Title II firearm.
And don't get me wrong. This isn't about me being right and you being wrong.
This is about keeping the ****ing ATF out of your life. My single most important goal in this discussion is making sure Mr. ATF Agent doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes time to charge someone. If some post of mine results in an ATF agent having to eat a shit sandwich, then I'll consider my time spent online as worthwhile. Honestly, if I could identify some post of mine as being the single reason an ATF prosecution went in the toilet I'd be a happy, happy man.
This is an "us versus them" question and the "them" in this case is the Feds.
Here's the funny thing about all of this; how come some individuals think that these rules and regulations are applicable to gun makers but cannot possibly be applicable to them? Manufacturing is manufacturing. When building an SBR lower, this is exactly what you are doing. It's not like this is considered "assembling" otherwise we wouldn't have to file a Form 1. :p
Because some are arguing 'making' and 'registering' different things which they probably are according to the law. I'm not an attorney nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night but I do believe for legal documents that 'too much information' isn't a bad thing.....so I engrave my own receivers. I'm covering my own ass.....Pound-me-in-da-butt prison doesn't sound fun.