Getting soft in your old age.
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Odd that I haven't see Sir David ever posting here about his "preparation" efforts.
‘Collapse of civilization’ predicted at UN climate summit
https://www.foxnews.com/science/sir-...climate-summitQuote:
"Right now, we're facing a man-made disaster of global scale," Attenborough told delegates from almost 200 nations. "Our greatest threat in thousands of years: climate change. If we don't take action, the collapse of our civilizations and the extinction of much of the natural world is on the horizon."
Scary part of that scenario is will they STAY on your side once you arm them.
For me to arm someone, I'd have to know them pretty damn well.
As far as the SHTF NFA question, depends on how bad the S hits TF, how long it lasts, and what happens to the government in the meantime. If it looks like things are gonna get sketchy for an extended period, and it'll be a situation where the government will no longer function, all bets are off.
But that's after the fact.
Problem is, up til that point, the government IS functioning, and you (at least I) never want to get on their radar as having plans to circumvent their stupid laws. I already have an SBR, so I'm legal right now. I'm also covered in the short, handy weapon area should things go south. I do need to get a suppressor one day.
I'll NEVER be able to afford a full auto lower, so that's out, (thanks again, stupid NFA laws) and I'm too scared of doing time to risk gathering up the parts to convert, then having them in my possession, or having the parts for "constructive intent" of a suppressor either...
Getting caught, and losing my freedom, or even my rights to own a gun is the biggest SHTF for me to avoid.
At least that one, I can control...
What is it that so many people think is going to happen that an AR and 1000 rounds of loose ammo is going to fix for them? I've never understood how the ammo hoarding and tactical rifle classes actually figure into dealing with a disaster.
And how is full auto, 6" less barrel or a rifle suppressor going to change the outcome compared to a regular rifle and several thousand dollars of extra food, seed, medical supplies, etc.
Also great for a few instances like breaking contact, and the like. That's why you have a selector switch. On for those few times you need it, off for everything else.
FA is a very useful tool. It just gets over used because it's fun... or under used because nobody can afford the damn things (legally) these days. Besides, humping a belt fed (and the ammo) all the time, when you rarely need it, just plain sucks. Having a switch to turn on, and off is the perfect compromise. That's why the government said no more new ones.
It's not, but the thread was about firearms and their laws... so the food and medical supplies aren't the talking point here. They will be the most useful by far, and most people know that.
The weapon... That's to keep them... once everybody else finds out you have them.
I'm just pointing out that firearms don't come from a separate budget as if paying for an SBR, LMT parts and suppressor are free. That is expensive stuff, and if you aren't primarily buying it for your hobby enjoyment, a waste of potential resources.
You can certainly dedicate tens of thousands to a FA weapon so you can "break contact", but break contact to go where? There are no enemy lines to retreat behind, no fortresses to hide in, no militias of trustworthy comrades, no jungles full of fruit and game. The gun people are going to have the biggest problem after a disaster because of their appearance and paranoia.
Who said this exactly, or are you just referencing a mindset you perceive in the "prepper" community as a whole? As for me, this teeters on the whole anti-gun vibe of "Why does anyone need an AR-15". But as for your question, having a carbine and ammunition in which to load it with would be highly advantageous to people who find themselves suddenly in a SHTF/WROL/et al. situation.
What kind of disaster are we discussing here; the loss of someone's job, an automobile accident, the collapse of the petrodollar, geomagnetic disturbance?
We witnessed ammo shortages during the last administration as a result of panic buying that was a direct result of anti-gun rhetoric from the then President, his AG, the MSM, and various other parties to include Bloomburg's Mom's Demand Action, Everytown for Gun Safety, and Gabby Gifford's Americans for Responsible Solutions and Giffords gun control origanizations. So people acquire and stockpile large quantities of ammunition for various reasons to include; range and training ammo, self-defense, future ammo restrictions, future tax, an out in right ban, SHTF, bartering, et al.
Professional firearm instruction is a no-brainer as one would require the knowledge and skill to effectively employ a firearm of any kind to defend themselves, their loved ones, their home/shelter, and life sustaining supplies after said disaster.
Yeah I don't see what barrel length has got to do with the equation other than from maybe a concealability standpoint. Suppressors have multi benefits. One can have stockpiles of antibiotics, food, water, agriculture supplies, etc. but the trick is they will have to have the means and willingness to protect such implements from desperate armed aggressors that will stop at nothing to feed themselves for just one more day.
I think the people who consider the collapse of the federal American government are in the minority, and the rest of us went on to discuss other uses for scarce dollars. (Or to present other items worth more consideration.)
The federal government does have plans for surviving for years after disasters far, far more involved than any one family or small group can hope to plan for. They'll be here (and, therefore, the rule of law will be here) long after we're gone, disaster or no disaster.
Break the law when you think the government has collapsed, and you'll pay for it when they get back.
What I was attempting to ask is how anyone thinks a lot weapons and ammo are going to make much a difference in any sort of longer term situation - especially when stuff like FA come up. As I pointed out, there is no fortress or paradise to defend - at the point you are pumping out lots of rifle, you and your prep supplies are so conspicuous that you don't have the firepower to keep them. That isn't an anti-gun sentiment, just a question of tactics. I was a military officer and went through two North American survival schools - there is no place that is going to be safe and provide food just because a handful people have a bunch of rifles and unlimited ammo.
And the only reason we had ammo shortages is because of ridiculous conspiracy mongering before and after elections, not because there was any actual threat to ammo. It was just the kind of behavior the NRA likes to whip up donations. All we did was jack up prices, make ammo scarce and lower the quality. At the same time of the shortages ammo was cheap and plentiful in Canada - it was like we were taxing ourselves with stupidity.
So your answer about the use of tactical weapons doesn't really answer my question because it assumes a sort of vague situation where a small group expects to attack or defend some sort of resource laden fort - and those don't really exist in the US. It just seems like zombie fantasy stuff rather than a realistic and sober assessment. Same with special bugout vehicles - when everyone is trying to get out of town, there aren't going to be any backwoods trails left that aren't already clogged with trucks that couldn't quite handle the terrain.
1. Yes, the collapse of the federal government is far less likely then what the OP posted about...
HOWEVER, if you want to talk about "other uses for scarce dollars"... go make your own thread...
That's not the question the OP posted about.
2. Yes, you'll pay a price should the gov go away, then come back. Another reason I don't have any illegal stuff... nor plans for it.
Im not a speculator and nor do I participate in panic buying. But in these days, especially now that the Democrats will control the House starting in January, they have already submitted new gun regulation/legislation. I think they just recycle the old proposed bills with new verbiage and change the date. Its already starting to happen. Democrats are already at it again with the push to ban assault weapons or any weapon they think doesn't make us safe. In cases like this, I can see why people stock up on ammunition and LPK's and lowers because a consumer will hope there will be a grandfather clause in any new legislation.
New bills are being proposed to ban assault rifles, ban 80% lowers, hi cap magazines, LPK's, tax ammo, back ground checks on ammo, registration on weapons etc. I will stand behind what I have always said in the past and that is that one day sooner or later, our government will completely ban any weapon not used for hunting purposes only. That way, we technically still have our 2nd Amendment but they get the icing on the cake.
I hear that the BATFE is working on a copier/scanner that can scan all form 4473's and are working on converting 4473's into a digital format. Sooner or later,the feds will have every Form 4473 in a digital format that can be accessed through a computer, alphabetized, categorized and they will be able to look you up and see everything you have purchased in the last 20 years. Its an easy sell, just tell the LGS that they don't have to keep a record for 20 years on site, the digital service is helping them out, but in reality its a national data base.
Remember in early 2000's when it was mandatory that everyone switch to digital cable? Even the government was willing to help you out? Why was the government so concerned with digital cable and digital TV? They weren't! Digital cable meant digital phone lines and digital internet connection! What's easier to monitor? Digital or Analog?
I, personally, consider a assault weapons ban to be a SHTF scenario. Why? Because you and I have invested thousands of dollars, maybe tens of thousands in this hobby. And if one day, its all just going to go away because some people in Washington said so, than I think that is a real SHTF scenario. Nation wide. Just look at our country today, our government under Obama was forcing the gay culture down our children's throats, supporting massive illegal immigration, supporting anti American leaders and embracing Islamic activist who where on a terror watch list, running guns to cartels and spying on just about everyone. Without you and I owning 60% of the worlds firepower, we might see a day where our government conducts clandestine, specops, drone strikes in our own country. They do it in every other country, why not here at home?
I don't know, hopefully that will never happen, but another close look at the Obama administration and it makes you think he was just testing the boundaries. None of those people got in trouble, which leads me to believe the next guy or girl is going to go full power mode!
To me, that is a real TEOTWAWKI or SHTF!
Bugout vehicles makes more sense to me than a four ton mountain of ammo. But the vehicles we own and driver every day will either work or they won't, for exactly the reasons posted. No vtol-amphibs for us.
And I agree-- better to reinforce preps for a disaster with a strong probability of actually happening than to invest in another thousand rounds of armor piercing, air burst incendiary tracer & bug spray ammunition.
What disaster that is varies by location, but I like the assessment that there is no magical fort in the U.S.
Yeah, no. Try to look up a real estate transaction, a felony conviction, a school transcript or any other important record from the days of paper. They're still on paper. Only. If you're very lucky, they made the jump to microfiche. You might not be old enough to remember microfiche.
At some point, the government simply throws up its hands in despair, claims that the record is old enough that it will never matter and walks away.
Why? Money. The government doesn't have the money for the people to convert that mountain of paper to a digital format.
Until they can cut the amount of time involved in the NICS down to where they can actually enter current data in a timely matter, (the Navy missed six chances to stop a mass shooter from legally purchasing a gun) using current technology, I'm just not worried about anything that happens before, say, ten years from now.
Uhm, no. I worked on the effort to get Seattle to pay for those boxes, and I know exactly why they paid for them. They only paid for them because we (citizens, voters) forced them to do so, over their whining, caterwauling and sniveling.
There are, I'm certain, still some of the politicians who were involved who have no idea what they paid for.
Your exactly right! That's why they wont be the ones doing it or paying for it! How hard is it for a gun store clerk to feed stacks of form 4473's into a copy machine that will scan each form and save a digital file? Doesn't take much effort, especially if you have several months or even a year to do it. Think about it? The US has plenty of money! Even if we didn't have the money, the US has a AAA credit rating, we can sell treasury bonds overnight to pay for anything! I think its Richo, check them out, I think they are the ones working on a special purpose copy machine that can feed, unfold, scan and refold the form 4473. Hell, they might have a 3rd party company that is lined up to do the work, just have the LGS's drop off all the paper form 4473's at a wharehouse and let the 3rd party contractors do the rest. Its literally that easy! It just takes time!
We got a whole country to enroll in Social Security in 1935 without the aid of technology. In 2016, 11.4 million Americans signed up for Obamacare using a website!
You can buy a scanner at Office Depot for two hundred bucks. There's no mystery there. There certainly isn't any need to develop anything.
They can't keep up with current demand-- so going into the archives and recording them is a pipedream.
I must have missed something. I'm not an FFL, but my impression has been that 4473's are retained by the dealer. ATF can look at them or they can and can subpoena them in a criminal investigation. How does the government get their hands on "all 4473's" in order to pursue this scanning and digitization?
How could small-arms and ammunition possibly NOT make a difference for people enduring a long term situation; SHTF/WROL/TEOTWAWKI/etc.?
Says who? The breadth and depth of the internet is rife of innumerable scenarios that we wouldn't have the time to even begin to broach here, contingencies abound. Recently I watched an interview on BBC of a thirty something Silicon Valley retiree who cashed out once he learned of some of the tech that is coming down the pipe and will be mainstream in our society in the next ten years. He purchased a private island for himself off the coast of WA and is stockpiling small-arms, ammo, and the related articles. Another gentleman who is a retired SEAL and a published author known to many on this site has read the tea leaves, designed, and built his own yacht that he now lives on to avoid the inevitable unpleasantries here in this country. There is literal information overload out there of people and contingencies.
The reason we had ammo shortages is because of a radical leftist infiltrator in the highest office in the land who pushed the disarmament agenda. His AG's Fast & Furious gun running scheme was not "conspiracy mongering". I guess you don't call the sanctions on imported Russian 7N6 and the attempt to ban domestically manufactured and imported M855 actual threats on ammo. The Democrats and a revised AWB and other anti-2nd Amendment legislation waiting in the wings which included taxing and regulating the sell and accumulation of ammo.
Do you own semi-automatic small arms?
If so is it just a "hobby" since you don't seem to see the rational use of firearms in self-defense roles? Or perhaps you do own firearms for self-defense but consider discussing firearm use post some collapse to be ridiculous. Then the question that begs to be asked is why you choose to participate in a Disaster, Preparation, and Planning sub-forum on a firearm centric forum with a name sake like M4C?
Its not just a ordinary Xerox copy machine, it also has finger print scanner and keyboard to input information. It will also be able to scan an FFL's current backlog of Form 4473's one at a time by filling a huge tray. When I got my FFL earlier this year, I was told by a ATF agent who inspected my location, that the copy machine would eventually replace all handwritten forms. Right now the Silencer Shop is using basically the same system to remotely file paperwork/mugshot/fingerprints for NFA items. A 4473 is a federal form, they don't need a subpoena to obtain them, the ATF has rights to access to everything a FFL has at any time.
Moose Knuckle,
People on this thread have spoke there mind about me and this topic but you just hit the nail on the head. Right now, people are doing some crazy shit. Like buying islands, building bunkers, building yachts, buying real estate in USVI and stockpiling weapons and ammo- yet people insist that I am living in a fantasy world. This is why I started this thread is to hear thoughts from others. I wasn't insisting that a SHTF scenario would be a massive earthquake or a tsunami or an event like that, sometimes the SHTF scenario is government intervention and regulation/legislation that comes with extreme consequences like 20 year mandatory jail time for having an "assault rifle" or 5 year mandatory for having a high cap magazine.
The conversations that I hear a lot are about people building F/A unregistered SBR's from 80% lowers complete with optics, PEQ-15's and homemade suppressors using the Surefire Warden as the donor mount. These are not just some toothless rednecks, these are CPA's, Lawyers, and professionals who anticipate something bad going down. I don't know what but I know its on peoples mind, that sooner or later, something is going down and we need to be prepared for it.
There is writing on the wall that really point to national registry, permanent bans, followed by nation wide confiscation or severe punishment in non compliance. I think most people are in denial or oblivious to the signs pointing toward that event. And I do NOT think the military is on our side, don't get me wrong, I support them, and they DO fight for peoples rights, just not ours- they will obey orders and so will LEO's.
I think a lot of people including most people on this forum will turn in there guns if that comes to be- I say that because of how many people on M4C refuse to build a 16" gun for fear that it is too grey area, so they build a 16.25 or 16.50 just to be safe. Most people are willing to drink a little too much and drive home or travel with a little grass in there possession, yet scared to go to a public range with a unregistered SBR for fear that some ATF who is nowhere around will somehow find out. And I see that a lot! More and more people today who own unregistered SBR's that they built and take them to public ranges, post pics on IG and Facebook like its no big deal. That's why I asked this question. I personally do NOT participate in breaking the NFA laws. I honor, respect and cherish the law!
Look at NJ right now, they are supposedly going door to door looking for hicap mags. Just think if the protesters in Paris had AR's. They are literally spraying liquified cow shit inside of government buildings with tractors and burning down everything. We are living is some uncertain times.
The 2nd Amendment is the linchpin to our Republic.
For me at least, it's not the loss of a monetary investment that is unacceptable but rather the taking away of the means in which I have to defend my family and myself. I've always felt that Ruby Ridge and Waco as well as PATCON were tests to see how far they could push. Every time they have a favorable party in place they seem to test the boundaries.
As a general rule we should all be prepared for 6 months to a year of whatever may come along. There are lots of pieces to that like food, cash, ammo and weapons. Some like food and water are far more important that guns and ammo. But if you have your ducks in a row and not living in a fantasy land you should be OK.
Now if its an EMP or solar event, all bets are off and we are all essentially done so do whatever you need to do.
What does it matter? It's the law, yes or no?
They COULD CHOOSE to do so at any time, to make an example out of any person etc.....If it's "No big deal" then why is it THE LAW? Obviously, someone thinks it IS a big deal and when they decide to enforce it, it WILL be a big deal to anyone busted.
You can't pretend that just because it's not being actively enforced that it's meaningless. If you really think that way, then parade yourself to the next session of the New Jersey State Legislature and start handing out PMAGS on the steps of the Capital and see what happens.
No, they can't do it, because of the Fourth Amendment. NJ didn't pass a law that allows LE to ignore the 4th just like Prohibition didn't make search and seizure of alcohol suddenly legal back then.
That has nothing to do with whether the ban on mags is right or wrong, but a law you don't agree with doesn't automatically imply that the entire Bill of Rights evaporated.
True enough. Although, many would argue that the law banning firearms/components in question is a violation of the Second Amendment. If they can violate the Second Amendment, what's to prevent them from violating the Fourth as well? So while the "entire Bill of Rights" may not have evaporated....parts of it are certainly beginning to make a solid to liquid to gas transformation it would seem.....
You are right that the NJ state police aren't likely to "go door to door" searching for "high capacity" magazines. But Esq is equally correct that they could.
Door to door MIGHT be excessive -- but door to door searches for firearms HAVE already happened elsewhere in the US, in the 21st Century, without search warrants. Yes, the courts eventually declared such searches and the confiscation of firearms by executive order to be unlawful -- but fat lot of good that ruling did for the people whose homes were searched and whose firearms were taken (many of which were damaged, lost, or simply never returned because the owners couldn't prove ownership).
If New Jersey state police or some local department in the state, decided they wanted to aggressively enforce the ban, they couldn't legally go door-to-door but it wouldn't be hard to find a liberal judge to issue search warrants based on "probable cause" using ownership of firearms that originally came with such magazines combined with the owner not having turned in such a magazine. NJ has records of everyone who owns an AR or AK, and records of anyone who turned in any "high capacity" magazines. An honest judge might not consider that sufficient probable cause, but you know damn well they have judges who would and the cops know which judges will issue warrants without looking too closely at the probable cause affidavit.
Those that would make that argument hold the illogical belief that the 2nd Amendment offers an absolute right to everyone within US borders to arm themselves as much as they want, and that has NEVER been true. The Founding Fathers didn't believe prisoners got to keep weapons, for instance.
The entire BoR is subject to limitations and regulations. You don't get 20 wives because you have freedom of religion, you don't get to incite violence because of freedom of speech, and you don't get to keep smallpox because you have the right to arms. Where the line is drawn is a point of debate, not a clear line.
Tell that to the NSA! The 4th Amendment blah blah blah! You amendments mean SHIT! That's like saying "shall not be infringed" while putting on your new tactical arm brace.
They didn't? Our Bill of Rights has 3 articles- (VI, VII & VIII) dealing with criminals and there rights. If you think your 2nd Amendment really protects you, go start a militia today and see if your not on some watch list tomorrow! The government can and has created legislation to regulate our rights- mostly pertaining to gun rights, you don't think they will eventually regulate our 1st amendment? Food for thought! House and Senate members say all the time that it is well within the governments right to regulate constitutional rights.
The laws today supersede your constitutional right! You and I cannot use the constitution in our favor anymore! The laws rules the land! The constitution is like your childhood yearbook, its fun to go back and look at the fun times and remember all the joy and happiness you had.
Why do people believe all rights are limited?
There is one right that is absolutely, categorically without limits.