RIP Rafi Eitan

nevermind but as ever

Victims, aren't we all.....?

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Originally Posted by yoni

If we had used the methods of the Nazis as was stated above, would we have the issues we have today with the Palestinians?

Don't think so, we would have killed them all a long time ago.

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I very specifically didn't draw a direct parallel. Obviously there were no trains or industrialized death camps. I cited a very specific incident and noted why I find it extremely objectionable. And honestly if the Israeli's were just another group like the Pali's I wouldn't have too much to say about it. My criticism comes from a higher expectation of Israel. I tried to make that clear.

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Originally Posted by yoni

King David hotel was called and told to evacuate the building, they didn't people died.

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A phone call does not absolve a terrorist of his actions when a building is blown up. Nor does it place the responsibility of the victims on the victims.

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Originally Posted by yoni

My understanding about Pollard was intelligence was being with held, so we used Pollard to get it. Israel used this intelligence to help us take out the Iraqi facility. If we had not done so, then America never would have gone to war with Iraq twice.

Since the second Iraq war made the Middle East worse and I think the only people Sadaam would have nuked was Iran maybe we made a mistake.

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I don't see what taking out Saddam's nuclear capacity has to do with their border dispute with Kuwait. Kuwaiti slant oil drilling methods (borrowed from the US) is what led to the first gulf war along with the UN failure to resolve the problem and the US refusal to mediate a solution.

But Pollard gave Israel way more than that. Of course from my perspective it shouldn't have been necessary as we should have already been sharing most of that intelligence with Israel in the first place. We rely on them for information, and occasionally "deniable action" so it should have been more of a two way street.

Very interesting discussion. Refreshing to see two people these days attempting to have a nuanced argument over complex issues. My take is pretty strait forward:

Rafi Eitan was an Israeli patriot and a fighter for Israelis and Jews. He put that mission above all else. He was perfectly right to recruit Pollard. In turn, Pollard betrayed his country and should have been put in front of a wall and shot. Rafi was an intelligence officer doing his job for his country. Pollard is a traitor. I am an adult and can hold both those thoughts in my head at the same time.

If we thought the British had information critical to our survival, and they were not giving it to us, the CIA should work to turn someone in England. That is the role of the case officer. The hypothetical Brit who collaborated with the CIA would be a traitor and basically deserves whatever happens to him.

Looking at the King David Hotel, and other Israeli abuses.... The Israelis should be criticized. NOw having said that, 6 million Jews were killed in World War 2. Perhaps a touch of paranoia and excessive violence is understandable. Look at us, 3,000 people were killed on 911, and we got Prism, the Patriot Act, Rendition, Gitmo, and all manner of questionable behavior. Can you imagine what we would have done if we lost 6 million?

I admire Mr. Eitan for his service to his people and his country, even if I don't love everything that he did on their behalf.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

My criticism comes from a higher expectation of Israel. I tried to make that clear.

I also held myself to a high standard and also demand that my country maintain a high standard.


A phone call does not absolve a terrorist of his actions when a building is blown up. Nor does it place the responsibility of the victims on the victims.

The King David hotel was the British headquarters, so one could argue it was a legit target. I think a phone call shows intent not to take human life and the mission was to disrupt the work of the military government.

Our enemies have never once picked up the phone.




But Pollard gave Israel way more than that. Of course from my perspective it shouldn't have been necessary as we should have already been sharing most of that intelligence with Israel in the first place. We rely on them for information, and occasionally "deniable action" so it should have been more of a two way street.

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Pollard was a turd, and for reasons having nothing to do with Rafi, he should still be behind bars.