Oh...ok
Printable View
I don't have chronographs or methods of gauging chamber pressure etc. I've just shot a bunch of it, during the same range sessions where I've shot Federal XM193, and noticed a difference in felt recoil and ejection pattern in a few different guns. I've heard WG is pretty much M193, but have no way of confirming that. I just shoot the stuff, not delve into SAAMI specifications and whatnot.
I've only shot WG in conjunction with Federal XM193, not any of the other M193 I've used (Prvi, IMI, Hornady Frontier) so I don't know how recoil/ejection compares to those other loadings.
The difference in recoil/ejection I noticed could also be due to Federal being on the hot side as well. Sometime back I seem to recall thinking it seemed a bit hotter than Prvi M193 as well, however it's been awhile since I've shot any Prvi.
I'd have to dig to find it, but I recall an official explanation (from Federal?) that the XM-193 met saami, was safe to shoot, and was good ammo comparable to their civvy ammo. But did not meet NATO specs in variability, which was pretty tight (+-10 fps) or something similar.
So my understanding is that it is not M-193, just close to it.
This was back when it first surfaced, maybe there is newer info.
No way was NATO requiring a 20 FPS extreme spread.
I believe NATO M193 is either a 40 or 80 FPS ES.
Three things effect ES. Powder charge, primer, and bullet straightness.
So let’s assume that M193 and XM193 are loaded to a different specification, but on the same line...which they obviously are (or were), the runout/bullet straightness will be the same because it is the same bullet, same case, same equipment. That’s not debatable.
M193 was loaded using the same primer as ATK sells commercially, the M41. It is no cheaper and likely more hassle to change the primer than to keep using the same primer. Additionally, commercial Federal and CCI primers are silver, while M41 primers, M193, and XM193 have brass colored primers. So the same primer is being used.
That leaves us with propellant. The difference in speed is due to variability or a difference in the pressure curve. Federal 100% weighs every charge on all their ammunition. That’s a fact. Additionally, the same equipment is (was) used for M193 and XM193. Therefore it is not reasonable to assume that Federal is somehow disabling their measuring capabilities when running XM193 vs M193.
Visual inspection suggest both have crimped and sealed bullets, crimped and lacquer sealed primers. We’ve established the case is the same, the primer is the same, and the bullet is the same.
The only difference, if there is one, could be within the propellant. Propellants are proprietary and each lot must be tested extensively for pressure and velocity, even if it is the same formula. This shipment of propellant may require a greater charge than the last shipment, etc. Therefore breaking down cases can only determine if visually the same type of powder is used. A chronograph would be the only way an individual could determine differences as proof testing isn’t possible with most individuals.
If I had any M193 to break down and compare, I would, but it’s been illegal to be in civilian hands because for a box to be M193 it has to be sold to a NATO government. The last time I had any actual M193 in my hands was years ago. I’ll likely never see any again and most on this forum won’t either unless they attained it illegally or are currently serving with a unit that has some old stock available.
So where does that leave us? When I asked him about it, around 2016/2017, he said there is no difference between boxes marked XM and boxes marked M. M boxes are sold to governments. Our military doesn’t use M193 anymore so we can only assume they are selling M marked boxes abroad. However, we do know that XM193 meets NATO pressures, exceeds .223 Rem pressures, has a crimped and sealed M41 primer, has a crimped and sealed 55 gr FMJ, and a published velocity of 3125-3205 FPS with a 20” proof barrel. It is descent ammunition.
What do we know about Wild Gold? It’s Tawaines ammunition that meets .223 Remington specs per SAMI. Beyond that, we have no information.
Which is a better buy? I think the answer is obvious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WG isn't Russian...it's Taiwanese.
Guys I don't care if xm193 is good or not, better or not than wolf gold, etcetera.
There are many threads on federal xm193 including multiple on this site with very specific figures about what m193 has to meet and how that's much tighter then commercial specs which are primarily pressure oriented with no variability or accuracy requirement.
There are also multiple screenshots from federals website when the ammo was first introduced and even now the website basically says this is budget a most suitable for blasting and is loaded to commercial specs.
There are a couple dozen reasons that lake City could reject ammo and it still be viable for commercial usage. people have talked to Federal and gotten that same information from technical lines in the past. It meets saami and should not be construed as m193 specifications.
For all we know wolf gold could be calls from taiwan's lake City equivalent.
You guys can go back to arguing whether wolf gold is crap or not, but it's pretty clear to me that xm193 is not just cheaper m193 and we do ourselves a disservice perpetuating that myth.
the only way to know otherwise is if Federal was the issue a statement defining exactly how xm193 is different. And they won't do that because there's enough people that's a it's good enough or don't understand the difference. and if you look at their current website it's very clear how they're positioning this ammo: budget blasting.
somehow we believe that identically marked barrels from the same manufacturer will magically have different specs if it's sold from a more expensive vendor. But then don't believe that differently labeled ammo could be different?
Yep, and most of the other wolf gold is private label PPU.
Wolf is a marketing label and the ammo is made that typically large commodity plants. To my knowledge only some of their steel is actually made in ex-Soviet plants.
I guess you could argue PPU is ex Soviet as well
As to the variability in the lake City XM ammo, informed conjecture is that its temperature variability or similar in the blended powder lots used. It also appears that there's physical culls just based on what I've seen and similar reports.
I've shot it and still have some to shoot, but it's not my favorite.