Tulsa, OK, slain officer Bodycam. *NSFW* hard to watch.

Thanks for the responses re: dogs.

I know applications are at all time lows but it does sound like minimum combative standards would help bridge that gap on the force ladder.

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Originally Posted by sandsunsurf

Lots of reasonable questions and responses here. I'll throw in my $0.02 for a few:

Short answer to where the deadliest failure was: Cops these days aren't trained or experienced in the hands-on part of the fight and arrest. In this case, they grabbed arms and danced and lost the suspect's arms multiple times. Forget all of the other use of force options; the taser and OC failed. And even when they work, you STILL HAVE TO PUT HANDS ON THE BAD GUY. I have posted before and talked with several LEO friends that for the last 5-10 years we are seeing a lack of ability and desire to go hands on (see Generation T above from @CrashAxe). When everything else failed, they should have committed to hands on (or done it earlier, thus not needing increased levels of force). Grab the arm and hold on (better experience and training makes this doable) and lock out a joint and take him out of the car, or just grab his dang hair and pull his head forcefully to the ground. Where the head goes, the body follows. As the fight really became more of a fight, then knowing how to put him in a clinch and deliver a knee to the body or head would have been legit and useful. It's a tight space, so maybe that wouldn't have worked, but as the arm gets pulled away for the 4th or 5th time, maybe an elbow or "closed fist strike" to the temple would have been the better option. Any way you put it, it was way past TIME TO COMMIT. The officers lost control of him at least 9 times. The rookie officer does try a clinch once the bad guy is out of the car, but he doesn't know what to do from there and that's when bad guy circles and gets a gun. The officer would have been better off doing an old-school hair-pull take down. I'd love to see a Gracie Breakdown of this..

Early in the stop, the Sgt should not have continued to give commands that aren't being followed. Ask, tell, make (as said above).

I like the idea of the Sgt having a "secret phrase" then moving to the same side, but not realistic in many agencies (maybe with a partner you work with every day). Then after that time in the video is when the Taser fails. It "fails" out of user error (or at least a known fact about tasers) which is that the officer is too close for the prongs to spread far enough to get actual muscle "lock-up". That's where a drive-stun is appropriate. Discharge the taser, then move the taser far away from the prong location and make secondary contact with the taser muzzle- in this case, open the passenger door discharge at dude's thigh, then drive the taser to the chest or under the armpit. Then the rookie can come in and get a good grip on the bad guy and they can make a plan for extraction from there.

Pepper spray can be effective for getting the fight out of many people, but as mentioned a focused person can fight through it pretty easily. The officer should have made SURE the OC went into the eyes and mouth and nose, but too much can keep the carrier from evaporating enough to really let the OC burn.

Regards to a K9, yes K9 for vehicle extractions is useful, but (sorry K9 guys) they're never there when you need them. Just like the helicopter. Somebody suggested making this a barricaded subject type call, but two things come to mind: First, it's still just a vehicle code violation. Second, we don't know if the keys are still in the car, but disengaging and leaving the bad guy in the car seems like a recipe for him to either drive away or get the gun and be ready for the next victim officers.

Shoving a gun in his face is, in my opinion, a bad idea. I subscribe to the mantra Never Go Hands On With A Gun In Your Own Hand. I'd rather see more committed hands on.

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I don’t mean literally shove a gun in his face. But they botched it so bad that the only possible salvage point was to make it a felony arrest and draw down on him for compliance.

But I agree, a better, harder hands on approach would have won the day. Get that good armbar and torque. If it breaks, “Sooooooorry bout that”.

Temple check, throat check, and hell of a good nut check would have come in handy. If not shut it down.

I won’t lie. I’m a big guy. Seriously. Like Shaq big. And will still kick a guy in the balls like I was going for a field goal. I will bend it like Beckham

But yeah, they need to do more fighting. Not that Aikido dance crap. Like...when Aikido works, it works well. But no basic officer really trains to that level. But good old fashioned American ass stomping should be second nature. Also start carrying maglites again. Oh boy, can you tune someone up with a maglite.

But yes, cogent points. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by marco.g

Thanks for the responses re: dogs.

I know applications are at all time lows but it does sound like minimum combative standards would help bridge that gap on the force ladder.

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I’ll call a spade a spade. It’s to draw in more women. Nothing against women police but the women police now are not like the good ol days. At least years back you got tomboys who, in all fairness, would still try to push through even if they let their alligator mouth overload their hummingbird asses.

Now you don’t even get the butches or tomboys. Now it’s Karens and Shaniquas who say “Aw naw I don’t do all that” and leave.

And the milquetoast people who think you can talk everything out like Full House.

Granted, the political atmosphere isn’t helping and the Beau Geste days of law enforcement are long over but sometimes you gotta stomp dat ayssh.

Didn't LE used to carry a collapsible baton called an ASP? I've had the chance to play with one and they could be an effective, non-lethal, but pain inducing persuader. Are they not part of the officer's kit any longer? A pop across the kneecap or shin could render the violent person more compliant.

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Originally Posted by FromMyColdDeadHand

I've asked before, no more billy clubs? Seems like the tasers are not getting the job done. They need to up the amps on those. They never seem to work, but people think that they stop anyone in their tracks. Seems like the worst piece of kit ever. I'd rather see them go with not-intentionally-leathal bean bag shot gun rounds.

So damn sad.

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Most PDs lost ALL impact weapons following Rodney King. No more batons, PR-24s or anything because some undertrained individuals (hello LAPD) would lose their shit and turn everything into a riot baton.

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Originally Posted by OH58D

Didn't LE used to carry a collapsible baton called an ASP? I've had the chance to play with one and they could be an effective, non-lethal, but pain inducing persuader. Are they not part of the officer's kit any longer? A pop across the kneecap or shin could render the violent person more compliant.

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Yeah but they really suck as an actual impact weapon. I still keep mine as a reacher stick or my “ten foot pole” or if something needs poked, prodded, or whatnot. They DO make a good vehicle window entry tool but as a whoopass stick, they fall short. I have bent them too much on people (yes, even swinging it the way it is meant to be swung). I mean, maglites just work. Except as a flashlight. I use my Surefire for seeing stuff, maglites for attitude adjustment

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Originally Posted by OH58D

Didn't LE used to carry a collapsible baton called an ASP? I've had the chance to play with one and they could be an effective, non-lethal, but pain inducing persuader. Are they not part of the officer's kit any longer? A pop across the kneecap or shin could render the violent person more compliant.

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Taser has all but replaced impact weapons for many departments.


Sent from 80ms in the future

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Originally Posted by mrbieler

I'm really sorry you get a hard-on elevating force to lethal over any non-compliance issue. Good luck with that. I'm just not seeing the words "Judge Dredd" on the shields they currently issue police.

Bad guys walk all day around us because at the moment in time, they're didn't do nuttin. It sucks, but that's the price we have for NOT being in a police state.

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If they forcefully eject the guy from the vehicle and arm bar him to the pavement while they cuff and stuff him and it turns out he was simply confused, had a mental condition or otherwise impaired you can always apologize later and everyone is still alive.

This stuff isn't really even a discussion and I think I'd rather get "handled" then tased.

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Originally Posted by jbjh

Taser has all but replaced impact weapons for many departments.

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Based on the videos I have seen, the Taser doesn't seem that effective at close range since the darts/probes impact too close to each other. I would think an old fashioned side-handle baton or collapsible impact weapon like the ASP would still work better. I am just glad I never picked LE for a career. I wouldn't have the patience to absorb the abuse these valued members of society have to take. A much better person than me that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by OH58D

Based on the videos I have seen, the Taser doesn't seem that effective at close range since the darts/probes impact too close to each other. I would think an old fashioned side-handle baton or collapsible impact weapon like the ASP would still work better. I am just glad I never picked LE for a career. I wouldn't have the patience to absorb the abuse these valued members of society have to take. A much better person than me that's for sure.

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The ASP does not have a great rep as an impact weapon among LE that takes the fight out of people as needed when needed, but other designs apparently much more effective. There was a thread on that here I recall. Other brands other than the ASP were much preferred.