Tulsa, OK, slain officer Bodycam. *NSFW* hard to watch.

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Originally Posted by sjc3081

I didn’t see the other thread. Sad but it appears the officers lack of decisive action cost the Sergeant his life. You give the driver
A few commands in less than a minute, than tase, than crush the driver for his actions. If you go half ass you can die. Most likely in todays BLM/ Antifa climate the two officers were unwilling to go 100% hands on.

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I had same thoughts yup. Watch that vid, reason 9,103,124 I could not do that job.

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Originally Posted by Firefly

You shove a gun in his face and loudly say “THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER WARNINGS” and mean it.

See this is what I hate about Officers these days. Too nice or too mean. They are keep repeating themselves to someone who is not listening. Or they shoot a guy begging just to stay still like that Youre Fcked dust cover retard.

When these hoods hear you repeat yourself too much they think you don’t mean it. It’s buying them time. That’s why you should have a non verbal cue to just hammer hard and fast.

I am not gonna pretend to be Bill Blower but here’s what I would have done with as minimal MMQBing as I can muster. Once he started mewling about not wanting out of the car; Ol Sargey poo should have (in a rehearsed dialogue tree with his rookie so he knows said) “Okay he just wants a ticket. Let me go get the book.” Rookie maintains an alert and ready posture and Sarge doubles back where both officers are on same side. If they went to shooting then and there, that could have been crossfire. “Warning arcs” are bullshit.

Then I would have had a better, clearer taser shot. Immediately upon returning he gets shocked and Rookie tries to SEPARATE FROM THE VEHICLE. If taser fails, it’s now a felony stop. Guns are drawn.

When you spray someone, you empty that can. I don’t think the leads connected properly with the taser.

Don’t repeat yourself. I get it. I get it. I get it. Goddamn do I of all people get it. You want compliance. You want a clean arrest. You don’t want to do paperwork. You don’t want to fight. You think if you reword it or say it differently that they will comply. You don’t want a lawsuit. You don’t want an investigation.

BTDT, and I can speak to this with authority because I have been guilty of it.

God forgive me but there are two types of people in this world: people you can talk to and people you have to beat on. He was not someone you can talk to or he would have done it. He was bracing, stalling, and phoning a friend.

SO MANY GOD DAMNED COPS GO INTO SCREEN SAVER MODE OVER A FVCKING PHONE. It’s become Blue kryptonite. That phone is getting him his own back up. Who CARES if he is livestreaming or recording.

You may well get a use of force investigation, you may even have to buy this man a new phone when you break it, but you will be alive.

When you keep repeating yourself you sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher. They don’t care.

The lesson learned is that a violent and gruesome arrest beats getting killed every day of the week.

Quit telegraphing. This isn’t your kid brother being a pain. This is your potential murderer.

We gotta go back old school. Talk to only those who will listen and obey and fist fvck everybody else.

Stay Alert, Stay Alive

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Excellent post....

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Originally Posted by mrbieler

No, I'm fairly certain that's exactly what this previous quote implies, "You shove a gun in his face and loudly say “THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER WARNINGS” and mean it."

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Yes. After the OC and Taser fails. If you read that to mean at the initial contact/introduction then you just aren’t reading and can be dismissed from being taken seriously on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Business_Casual

The flaw in your argument is that he had done something. First he operated a vehicle on the public roads with expired tags. Next, when given a lawful command/order, he failed to comply multiple times.

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Ill be the first to call BS arrests for BS reasons, BS And for the LEOs out and about going out of their way to hang paper on and jam up folks over said BS they’re doing the job wrong.

Unless it devolves it something after that or there’s a kid tied up and gagged in the back sit it’s here’s your warning, have a nice day, goodbye.

/sidebar


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Originally Posted by marco.g

Looking at this as a non LEO - would this be a good use case for a K9?

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Plenty of AOs treat such situations as barricaded subjects and respond accordingly.


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Is the law written so that a person has to comply with any command of an officer at any time? Or just if there's any minor infraction (driving without tag)?

Does this only apply to vehicles, or could the same be done at a person's house?

Disregarding the shooting incident, I'm curious about the legal chain of events here.

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Originally Posted by SomeOtherGuy

Are there issues with that in Tulsa though? The national climate is obvious, but standards and prosecution are local. And the suspect/POS is white.

Is it possible these officers were being too soft because the guy came across as a whiny little man-child and they didn't think he'd be as much of a threat as he was? Obviously 2020 is a terrible year for police, but I'm not sure how much this one is BLM-related.

My condolences to the slain officer's family.

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You’re obviously not familiar with DA Steve Kunzweiler. Yeah, it’s an issue.

There seems to be the thinking that the LE Officers escalated this. They made a lawful stop, and according to case law - Pennsylvania vs. Mimms, decided by the United States Supreme Court, officers can make you leave your vehicle during such as stop. It doesn't even have to be DUI related - just a traffic stop. This goes for any passengers as well.

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Originally Posted by Firefly

You also cannot tase after OCing someone because some OC is flammable and they will catch fire.

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Most OC sprays now use a water based propellant for this specific reason and are safe to be used with Tasers.


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Originally Posted by grizzlyblake

Is the law written so that a person has to comply with any command of an officer at any time? Or just if there's any minor infraction (driving without tag)?

Does this only apply to vehicles, or could the same be done at a person's house?

Disregarding the shooting incident, I'm curious about the legal chain of events here.

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Let’s not take it too far. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant is needed for your home. If police are smart, they show up with a warrant to your home.

Vehicles are on public roads and, by design, driving is NOT a privilege nor is it an absolute right. It is a Qualified right. It’s a long, lengthy, laborious, depressing gyre to get into but suffice it to say it isn’t inherently unconstitutional to require a tag and license.

In the tiers of police contact, they met the litmus for Articulable Reasonable Suspension. At the point of contact the subject was indeed detained and subject to lawful order.

Every traffic stop constitutes a detention. So, I don’t know why people think that is the time to argue, whine, and show ass. During this detention, you are subject to positive identification and lawful order. The officers were certainly well within their authority to remove him from the vehicle. Especially if it had an invalid tag and no insurance.

You do not need a warrant to Terry inventory the vehicle. You only need a warrant to go in locked or inaccessible parts of the vehicle.

With no ARS or Probable Cause, you can ignore an officer if he says hello or hi. But, that is terribly rude.

Sometimes hello is just hello.

Tl:dr

if you are detained, then you are beholden to follow lawful orders