Tulsa, OK, slain officer Bodycam. *NSFW* hard to watch.

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Originally Posted by andre3k

Most OC sprays now use a water based propellant for this specific reason and are safe to be used with Tasers.


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MOST. Not All.

Not every department or neighbor agencies have the same level gear.

I don’t know what these guys had or their policy for tasing after spraying.

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Originally Posted by grizzlyblake

Is the law written so that a person has to comply with any command of an officer at any time? Or just if there's any minor infraction (driving without tag)?

Does this only apply to vehicles, or could the same be done at a person's house?

Disregarding the shooting incident, I'm curious about the legal chain of events here.

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In this case, POS was driving erratically at 3am. Pulled over with long expired paper tags. Initial contact reveals no license or insurance. He was driving completely illegal and SOP is to tow the car. They weren’t even planning to arrest him until he refused to exit the car. He was allowed to call for a ride because he was not going to be allowed to drive away. POS didn’t want to exit the vehicle because he was in unlawful possession of the concealed handgun, which with his priors would’ve got him arrested.

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Originally Posted by glocktogo

In this case, POS was driving erratically at 3am. Pulled over with long expired paper tags. Initial contact reveals no license or insurance. He was driving completely illegal and SOP is to tow the car. They weren’t even planning to arrest him until he refused to exit the car. He was allowed to call for a ride because he was not going to be allowed to drive away. POS didn’t want to exit the vehicle because he was in unlawful possession of the concealed handgun, which with his priors would’ve got him arrested.

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And that POS chose a path in this contact which will get him either life without parole, or the needle. The other path only required him to stand outside of his vehicle, take the ticket(s) and ask the officers if he could call a friend for a ride. It's possible the handgun wouldn't have been found. They may have even waited with him while the ride was en-route. He chose poorly.

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Originally Posted by Firefly

Let’s not take it too far. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant is needed for your home. If police are smart, they show up with a warrant to your home.

Vehicles are on public roads and, by design, driving is NOT a privilege nor is it an absolute right. It is a Qualified right. It’s a long, lengthy, laborious, depressing gyre to get into but suffice it to say it isn’t inherently unconstitutional to require a tag and license.

In the tiers of police contact, they met the litmus for Articulable Reasonable Suspension. At the point of contact the subject was indeed detained and subject to lawful order.

Every traffic stop constitutes a detention. So, I don’t know why people think that is the time to argue, whine, and show ass. During this detention, you are subject to positive identification and lawful order. The officers were certainly well within their authority to remove him from the vehicle. Especially if it had an invalid tag and no insurance.

You do not need a warrant to Terry inventory the vehicle. You only need a warrant to go in locked or inaccessible parts of the vehicle.

With no ARS or Probable Cause, you can ignore an officer if he says hello or hi. But, that is terribly rude.

Sometimes hello is just hello.

Tl:dr

if you are detained, then you are beholden to follow lawful orders

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I think grizzlyblake is commenting on the implication that because these 2 officers were shot, every citizen should expect any interaction with an officer to be based on this event.

And is there anything that a person can't be detained over and what exactly is the limit on lawful orders? While I understand not getting in a fight with an officer, the meekly accepting wrong doing and fighting it in court needs to end up with the officer in the wrong having their day in court with their finances and freedom on the line too.

Anyone got the skinny on the other chap arrested & what roll he had / charges??

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Originally Posted by OH58D

And that POS chose a path in this contact which will get him either life without parole, or the needle. The other path only required him to stand outside of his vehicle, take the ticket(s) and ask the officers if he could call a friend for a ride. It's possible the handgun wouldn't have been found. They may have even waited with him while the ride was en-route. He chose poorly.

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I’d like to add that what would make me seek death penalty was the way he did that quick ‘scan and assess’.

I want to say after he started calling his buddy; that’s when he decided these officers’ fates.

I also think about the great divide. One officer was too rookie the other officer too comfortable.

Stay hungry. Stay vicious.
Every day could be your last. Comfort kills. Not respecting that anybody could break bad, kills.
You will see this again.

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Originally Posted by jsbhike

I think grizzlyblake is commenting on the implication that because these 2 officers were shot, every citizen should expect any interaction with an officer to be based on this event.

And is there anything that a person can't be detained over and what exactly is the limit on lawful orders? While I understand not getting in a fight with an officer, the meekly accepting wrong doing and fighting it in court needs to end up with the officer in the wrong having their day in court with their finances and freedom on the line too.

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Whatever is objectively reasonable. Like I said, don’t take it too far. Everybody is looking for some limit to reach.

Wanting to know your identity on the side of the road and to ask you to exit vehicle until everything is sorted is not unreasonable.

Nobody is asking you to vogue or walk and chew bubblegum.

Police are lazy. I know. I’m lazy. I don’t like doing anything extra or crazy. I just want to do my thing and go home.

Why does everybody think a lawful detention is on par with Amon Goethe lining up Jews in Auschwitz?

A vast majority of the time, Officers stop people who need stopped. GOOD police work is boring.

99% of the time it is either a “slow it down”, a “hey buddy, get it fixed” or “Press hard, 5 copies, online pay, PD number, and court date are on ticket. Be blessed”.

Nobody (real) wants to honestly touch on you, go through your stuff, or be bothered with your personal mess.

I have run across too many used condoms and tampons and other nasty, fetid stuff to really want to go through anybody’s stuff if I do not have to.

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Originally Posted by Firefly

I’d like to add that what would make me seek death penalty was the way he did that quick ‘scan and assess’.

I want to say after he started calling his buddy; that’s when he decided these officers’ fates.

I also think about the great divide. One officer was too rookie the other officer too comfortable.

Stay hungry. Stay vicious.
Every day could be your last. Comfort kills. Not respecting that anybody could break bad, kills.
You will see this again.

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Were they oblivious or did they pick up on the fact this really was a rotten person? We are seeing police behavior of laissez faire to running away with rioters(who really would lay in to them) while simultaneously not dragging their feet on acting decisively against people defending themselves against the rioters, but currently pose no threat to police.

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Originally Posted by jsbhike

Were they oblivious or did they pick up on the fact this really was a rotten person? We are seeing police behavior of laissez faire to running away with rioters(who really would lay) in to them while simultaneously not dragging their feet on acting decisively against people defending themselves against the rioters, but currently pose no threat to police.

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They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.

It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.

Like Fight Club or something.

That’s the reason we used to do pugil sticks, bayonet training and hand to hand in Basic/AIT and at your unit.

I guess that’s too violent now.


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