I know the feelingQuote:
Originally Posted by Raining Brass
Printable View
I know the feelingQuote:
Originally Posted by Raining Brass
Dunno. The agents I work with are carrying M4s. But a couple of batches I've seen of the "Government Model" DEA-spec carbine, and numerous commercial guns, do look like that pictured.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAMMERDROP
I think you have to define this argument based on what you really want to achieve with your M-4 build. Many guys here agree that a weapon built as close to tier 1 or the TDP as possible is the goal. They are interested in serious, life or death work with this weapon, and their equipment and training reflect this. The fact that they are not LE/mil is irrelevant. It's the mindset you bring to the table that counts, not your job title. Some make fun of them, calling them ersatz "gunslingers", when the fact of the matter is armed citizens are in many cases more qualified than their LE/mil counterparts. They train for the possiblity, however remote, that one day their skills may be required. Yes, even with a carbine.
Then there are the others, the vast majority of AR owners, who for whatever reason own and shoot these rifles. Whenever the discussion on reliability comes up, they are dragged into the fray as examples of why none of this "high-end crap" is really required. They don't really "need" an utterly reliable weapon. And the really serious folks, without some kind of credentials, are lumped in with them as wannabe cowboys.
So what this is all about is the REASON you own a M-4. I think any person, regardless of job status, who really wants to learn how to fight with this weapon, will want the best possible weapon he can obtain, with the best possible support equipment, and most importantly of all, the best training he can obtain. It doesn't matter if he is facing imminent danger or not. It's about being prepared as a 2d ammendment rifleman for whatever eventuallity that may or may not come.
If you define this argument from this basic premise, all this other chaff about "needs", creds, or whatever don't hold water.
So with this in mind, return to Grant's original post. Would you want to stake your life on this rifle? I would upgrade this rifle with a BCM or LMT upper. I would replace the whole BCG with a CMT or LMT MPI'd bolt ass'y, and a BC with a properly staked keyway. In fact, when I was done, the only original part left would be the stripped lower.
I would assume that everyone here is a serious student of combat weaponcraft. This whole idea of whether you need a tier 1 or equivalent weapon would seem to be a no-brainer. Yet it continues to pop up.
I think there is very credible evidence that building a carbine to the TDP spec is a very good idea. Do I have irrefutable evidence and statistics to prove this? No. But I think any reasonable person who makes a study of the issue will reach this conclusion. Annecdotal evidence from reputable trainers suggests that it is so. So based on the best evidence available, I have reached this conclusion. My assumption is that anyone else who takes the time and trouble to study this issue, including formal training would reach the same conclusion.
It is hard to tell for sure but the barrel extension on the RRA that Grant started this post about does not even look like it has M4 ramps and the upper is dremel cut slightly to give the impression that it does. Same goes for the one Koalorka has pictured. The ramps cut into the extension seem to end at the edge of the outside circumference of said extension as in std. rifle ramps. M4 ramps needed to be cut by hand into both the extension and the upper:eek: The idea that anyone should get an "M4" put together this way is absurd.
I am an enthusiast and armed civilian that is always looking for the most reliable and best way with regards to all my gear. The gun that is a copy of the military weapons of the day and "purchased by DEA" should run for the rest of my life unless it is used hard and not maintained. The argument that it is good enough to let that kind of workmanship hit the street is BS! RRA should be ashamed of themselves for letting that kind of fluff pass as hand made M4 ramps. The stake job is obviously not good enough, but comes much closer to acceptable and/or understandable than the half assed attempt to make someone think they are getting M4 feed ramps that they don't even need!
My personal experience is with an RRA carbine that needed a hammer and punch to open and take down for cleaning and put back together. Upper and lower pin holes were way beyond slightly out of alignment. It was hammered together and shipped out as if that was ok??????????
:confused: Billy
Well, one thing that has emerged from this discussion is any vendor can have a bad day at the factory and screw up, for whatever reason. So having a good armorer like Ken Elmore go through your piece, check and fine tune everything might not be such a bad idea. Even for your prancing ponies. Or do it yourself if you have the tools and skills. Perhaps this is the one ingredient missing from most homebuilds that gives them such a bad rep.
On RRA, well, that M-4gery job was bad. That upper should have been shit-canned and done over. Doesn't matter if you think M-4 cuts are required or not. People want them and they should be done right.
On the BCG, you could give them a pass on that, since hardly anyone gets that right, but here again, this is one of the critical points that you should inspect and make right when doing your reliablity package.
FWIW -- I wont ever buy RRA no matter what --
Remember back to their "M1993" spec receiver where they goofed on the Picatinny rail and then made up BS about it being the new US Army spec?
Nuff said about any company that could pull that sort of BS.
Holy Crap. You're kidding, I hope.:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB
I have 4 RRA lowers that I bought when they were trying for the DEA contract for my own builds. They are great. Since then I have seen a dealer selling RRA 2nds as finish defect only. He gets cases of them. Well I buy one . Out of spec in the take down pins. Went back and checked some others he had. Same thing . An upper sits too high on the lower with pins in place. There was one in the case I bought cuase dimensionaly was ok. Just scratched. All this tells me RRA is has gotten sloppy and pawning there scrap off as blems. I do not know anything about their complete rifles.
Except that Ken only offers this service on Colts. he won't work on anything else, at least that's what his website says. And I always wondered what teh value of this service is when it's only performed on the models that are GTG out of the box, at least that's the conventional wisdom. To me it would make much more sense to offer this service for your standard BM/RRA since those are the units coming off the assembly line that need a thorough going over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diz
Agreed. If nobody with the skills on Ken Elmore is willing to offer this service then it's probably going to be contingent upon ourselves to inspect, correct, and/or build it in right the first time.Quote:
Or do it yourself if you have the tools and skills. Perhaps this is the one ingredient missing from most homebuilds that gives them such a bad rep.
It all boils down to PRIDE do you think our grandfathers would have built a product like that! HELL NO!!! a lot were old school craftman. Do It right the frist time the best you can do. That is long gone in america today. Thats why china is taking over so many products. and people buy it! Yester day I had to go to the local auto part store browsing I found the a great little pair of pliers $1.99 made in china but you should see the quality. Look out folks!!! Were loosen it! Pride I think theres a little still around some where!~~~:(