Thanks a bunch for all the advice guys, you've given me good input and a lot to think about but at the same time remained on topic. Thanks and talk with you guys soon.
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Thanks a bunch for all the advice guys, you've given me good input and a lot to think about but at the same time remained on topic. Thanks and talk with you guys soon.
For comparison, here is a rifle I built a while back, Bushmaster Superlight barrel, DD Lite rail, EOTech 552, KAC VFG, etc. You can see what is on it. I normally had an X200 but it wasn't with me at the time so I substituted an L1. 6.85lbs unloaded. If I'd switched the EOTech for an Aimpoint T1 it would be closer to 6.25.
http://www.azbattlerifles.com/images/slw.jpg
I second rob_s's suggestion of a Colt 6520.
What training courses have you gone through? Any using an AR? Training has always been my best investment...
My concerns are that you appear to have a budget; $2,000.00 allocated for the rifle and $500.00 allocated for the furniture. What operational and maintenance funds do you have allocated for ammo/upkeep?
A case of Black Hills 77gr match is running at $525.00 from a CMP source, 1,000 rounds go quickly. I bought my first rifle in March, I've already spent close to $3000.00 on ammo alone.
As far as maintenance and upkeep that is what I consider an integral part of owning a firearm and I have extra money each month to take care of that. Ammunition is something I buy as often as I can when there is a decent sale of quality ammo. I've taken several courses from ITTS in California before I moved to WA state. I attended the Tactical Carbine 1 and 2 along with the Defensive Handgun 1 and 2 and the Tactical Shotgun course and let me say these guys are awesome and I was lucky to have Scott Reitz as my instructor for all the courses I attended. I am looking for the same quality type of school here in WA and have yet to find it (although I haven't looked really closely yet) and I would love to find one that specializes in instruction with the AR and it's variants. Again thanks for the feedback guys and see you on the forums!
Simple answer:
Colt 6920 with an Aimpoint, Vickers sling, and a Surefire light
Daniel Defense M4 or XV carbine with an Aimpoint, Vickers sling, and a Surefire light
I would disagree. FUNCTION is most important. The weapons I've recommended are made from excellent materials with careful attention paid to making the weapon run out of the box. They generally run very well, and they last.Quote:
so fit / finish and quality materials are important.
An Aimpoint Micro would save some weight.Quote:
So any weight savings that can be had I am all in favor of but I do not want to sacrifice quality to do so.
You can buy a Daniel Defense M4 for well under 2 grand, and all you need to buy after that is an optic, light, and sling. You may find that you'll have to spend more on a 6920 especially if you want a rail (my 6920 wears a Daniel Defense Omega which is very light) and different accessories like a stock and grip.Quote:
Price:
I have around 2 thousand dollars saved to purchase the rifle itself and another 300-500 to outfit it with the accessories that I like (not including optics as I haven't settled on the exact manufacturer or type that I am needing or wanting).
You don't need a piston gun, so why pay a bunch of extra money for one?Quote:
Models:
From Daniel Defense I'm considering both the DDM4 and DDXV (amazing support guys at DD by the way, emailed them requesting in depth info on the M4 line and they returned my email with a detailed and prompt response in less than 4 hrs! I can post it if anybody wants). From Colt I'm considering both the LE6920 and the LE6940. From LWRC the M6 series. From LMT the Defender or CQB series.
Stick to the DI designs as they are far in excess of most people's requirements anyway. You can't go wrong with any of the DD offerings or with the Colt LE offerings. I think Daniel Defense offers a better value at the pricepoint, especially the M4 variant.
What VFG works best for your needs depends a lot on your training and your light placement. Personally I prefer a stubby type VFG because I only use the bottom couple of fingers of my hand on it. The rest are gripping the rail and the base of my thumb operates the light. You aren't required to grip the VFG with your whole hand. The "choke the chicken" hold on the VFG actually makes it harder to run the carbine, IMO.Quote:
Vertical Fore Grip:
I have fairly large hands and I need something I can grip securely so the stubby type VFG's won't work and I prefer something with a very tacky Hogue like texture.
Daniel Defense's Omega rail is rock solid, installs in 10 minutes, and is a true free float system. The price on them is nice too.Quote:
Rail System - Free Float type:
I would like a good quad rail system that feels EXTREMELY solid. Mid Length or full length right up to the front sight is ok but mid length is preferred for weight savings.
This is a function of the buffer tube. If you buy a Colt it will come with a 4 position buffer tube. If you really want 6 positions you'll have to change out the buffer tube.Quote:
Stock:
Collapsable 6 position with decent cheek weld.
4 positions seems to work fine for most.
The Magpul CTR stock would be my preference. I'm currently running the MOE stock on my 6920 and it's great. I've never had any slipping issues. The butt pad isn't really what keeps the carbine in your shoulder...your grip is.Quote:
A butt pad that is made of some kind of tacky feeling material would be a bonus as for me it makes controlling said weapon so much easier ( although this is not a deal breaker as it can be had later ).
That gets really old during a 5 day carbine course, bro. The Hogue stuff starts to blister your hand something fierce after a while.Quote:
Pistol Grip:
I prefer adjustable palm swell style grips along with finger grooves and a very tacky Hogue like feel (again the palm swell is preferred but not a deal breaker).
I would advise the Magpul MIAD system for the pistol grip, as it allows you to customize the grip to whatever profile you want.
On a defensive use carbine with a red dot you're better off, IMO, having a BUIS that is always up. There are a number of different options on the market that result in a lower 1/3 co-witness with an optic and irons and it works splendidly.Quote:
Backup Iron Sights:
Flip up BUIS are preferred as they can flip down and stow out of the way when not being utilized.
The trigger pull on a carbine is the LEAST important feature of the weapon. Generally anything you buy from any of the good manufacturers is going to come with a decent trigger from the box that is easy to use. The adjustable stuff isn't as reliable as what Colt or DD put in the weapons at the factory. I will give you the advice I've heard Larry Vickers give a number of times:Quote:
Trigger:
I would prefer single stage as they have less moving parts but I would like something adjustable (if there is such a thing?).
Buy a DD rifle or Colt 6920 and leave the major functional pieces of the weapon (fire control group, bolt, carrier, etc.) alone.
Sounds like an Aimpoint micro to me.Quote:
Optics:
Red Dot Holographic sight that is small light weight and reliable.
I run a Surefire G2 in a VLTOR mount. Cheap, reliable, and very effective. The Surefire X300 works well too...especially when mounted at 12:00 on a Daniel Defense M4.Quote:
Tactical Flashlight:
Again small, light weight and reliable
3 points suck.Quote:
Sling:
2 point or 3 point etc.
A Vickers 2 point sling is the ticket.
Again I'd like to state, thanks so much for all the feedback I think I've got a solid idea of what are considered the highest quality parts that would fit my needs. I really didn't expect the overwhelming amount of good info contained in the responses. Thanks guys, much respect.
Just wanted to reiterate the original statement here that I am focused on function with the added benefit or fit/finish not being a bad thing at all, however that is by no means the primary concern.
Original Quote:
Form means absolutely nothing to me if it doesn't function and function well under heavy use although well designed and somewhat pleasing to the eye doesn't hurt either. I don't know about some, but my usual definition of a quality product is one that doesn't rattle around and have loose tolerances, so fit / finish and quality materials are important.
Response:
I would disagree. FUNCTION is most important. The weapons I've recommended are made from excellent materials with careful attention paid to making the weapon run out of the box. They generally run very well, and they last.
~Braydynn
Hi Braydynn, welcome. Let me first say that has to be the best thought out, most well written first post I've seen by anyone on any forum ever. You've listed some quality gear. Also you've received some outstanding advice from really knowledgeable guys who won't steer you wrong. Being new here I'm far from a senior member and can't even begin to touch the quality or volume of advice/info that IG, rob_s or some others that have posted here can give you. Don't know how much I'll be able to add but here's my $0.02. Personally I only own a Daniel Defense and since its on your list most of my comments will revolve around it.
I hear ya. Function is primary but like you said looking good doesn't hurt. Is definitely an individual choice though and only you know what catches your eye. About the fit I think every rifle, even from the same mfg, is going to have a different fit but my DDM4 has basically no slop between the upper and lower and the take down pins are firm yet very easy to get out with thumb pressure.Quote:
Aesthetics:
Form means absolutely nothing to me if it doesn't function and function well under heavy use although well designed and somewhat pleasing to the eye doesn't hurt either...my usual definition of a quality product is one that doesn't rattle around and have loose tolerances...
Don't have a scale so can't weigh my DDM4 but can tell you for a railed rifle it feels light and balances well vs some others I've handled (I'm thinking specifically about the 6940 and the LMT MRP). Maybe the actual weight was in the info DD sent you. Also there a couple of threads that might be of interest to you but my search skills are off right now and I can't seem to find them. One I think was either started or contributed to by rob_s about Colt pencil barrels and had some interesting weight thoughts. Sure he can go into more detail or point you in the right direction. The other was a comparison of a number of different stocks on different rifles and how they balanced out. It has loads of good info from guys about different combos they have tried. If I can track it down I'll post it here.Quote:
Weight:
I'm having real trouble getting accurate weight measurements on a lot of rifles but I'm wanting to purchase a unit that is VERY light and I would like ALL the accessories to follow this penchant as well.
I went with the DDM4 and like it. From everything I've read and seen though the Colt and LMT are fine choices as well. Did get to shoot a 6920 and it was just as tight as my rifle. Kinda surprised not to see Noveske on your list. I think my next rifle is going to be a BCM middy or Noveske upper on a LMT lower so remember piecing one together is always an option and may save you some cost replacing things that come on a stock choice.Quote:
Models:
From Daniel Defense I'm considering both the DDM4 and DDXV. From Colt I'm considering both the LE6920 and the LE6940. From LWRC the M6 series. From LMT the Defender or CQB series.
From what I've seen there aren't any VFGs with Hogue textures but I could be wrong. I have average to large hands but I also find myself gripping the rifle like John_Wayne777 so am currently looking at replacing the full length grip that came on the DDM4 with a Tango Down stubby. I found the front end of the rifle harder to control and wavering more with the "choke the chicken" grip but YMMV.Quote:
Vertical Fore Grip:
I have fairly large hands and I need something I can grip securely so the stubby type VFG's won't work and I prefer something with a very tacky Hogue like texture.
The DD comes with the Magpul Moe and mine has very little movement and a nice but pad. Thought about changing to a CTR for the friction lock but not a priority for me. Also, I personally want to try a SOPMOD but can't offer any comments. Again the thread above about balance with different stocks might be helpful.Quote:
Stock:
Collapsable 6 position with decent cheek weld. A butt pad that is made of some kind of tacky feeling material would be a bonus as for me it makes controlling said weapon so much easier ( although this is not a deal breaker as it can be had later ).
I went with a MIAD for the size change ability and don't like the A2 bump on the grip that came with the gun so it was the best choice for me. The texture is nice and grippy though not sticky like the Hogue's on my P229 but honestly I wear gloves most of the time when I'm shooing the rifle. For tacky I guess your looking at the Ergo or I think there may be a AR Hogue overmold???Quote:
Pistol Grip:
I prefer adjustable palm swell style grips along with finger grooves and a very tacky Hogue like feel (again the palm swell is preferred but not a deal breaker).
Ok the M4 came with a fixed front and rear. I have an Aimpoint T-1 in a 1/3 co-witness mount and the fixed rear BUIS doesn't interfere at all. That said I have a MBUS flip-up rear on order and waiting to test that combo to see how I like having the rear out of the way. I'm not going to grind down the front and leave a empty hole in the rail but really if you choose one with a fixed front having a smith grind it to fit under a rail is always an option if you want that. At added cost of course.Quote:
Backup Iron Sights:
Flip up BUIS are preferred as they can flip down and stow out of the way when not being utilized.
Like everyone has said sounds like an Aimpoint micro. I went with the ADM mount for a couple reasons but the DD micro mount has since come out and I think I remember reading its the lightest compared to the ADM or Larue by an ounce or maybe 2.Quote:
Optics:
Red Dot Holographic sight that is small light weight and reliable.
I'm going with a G2 Led with a Z59 clicky tailcap in a Vltor offset mount but its on order so can't give you any feed back other than the G2 seems like one of the lighter options I looked at when it came to flashlight plus mount. I think the x300 would be the lightest at just 3.7oz I believe but I just wasn't sure how I was going to activate it will my grip. Again a personal decision and YMMV.Quote:
Tactical Flashlight:
Again small, light weight and reliable
I wouldn't promote a gun shows as a place to find a deal on a rifle but if there is one near you soon it might at least give you a chance to handle and feel a couple of the different options; especially when it comes to different grips, vfg's and stocks.
Good luck on your search and again welcome.