I'm filling out a form 1 for a SBR I'm putting together. How do I fill out the "overall" length question? Stock fully extended or collapsed?
I did a quick search and the only answer to a similar question was, "either one".
What is correct?
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I'm filling out a form 1 for a SBR I'm putting together. How do I fill out the "overall" length question? Stock fully extended or collapsed?
I did a quick search and the only answer to a similar question was, "either one".
What is correct?
It would be with the stock extended. This is what I have always used.
Thanks guys.
As for the, "why your building this firearm" question... i put "For any and all legal purposes". I'm intereted in what others have put.
Again thanks...
Used for recreational use and collector item.
I have no idea of knowing how much knowledge you have concerning NFA weapons and I was trying to eliminate some confusion for you. Obviously you didn't know what the acronym meant otherwise you wouldn't have stated::rolleyes: Or you're having difficulties with reading comprehension as the acronym stands for, Short Barrel Rifle. Not SOLR, or Short Overall Length Rifle, for the uninitiated.Quote:
Short seems to be the watchword in SBR
There are a few different classifications that I am aware of regarding NFA firearms. They are SBR, Machine Gun, AOW (Any Other Weapon), Rifle/carbine (Title 1) and Pistol (Title 1). The reason for the overall length question is due to the rules & regulations concerning different classifications of weapons and how they fit into these categories.
Feel free to ask any more questions and I'll do my best to help.
Irishluck, you are 100% incorrect.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/se...1----000-.html
An SBR classification applies to a weapon that may have a 16.1" barrel but an OAL of 25.5". It was this condition that got Randy Weaver caught up with the ATF, but in regards to a short barrel shotgun not a short barrel rifle. He cut the barrels to the legal length, but the stock had a childs length of pull and therefore was shorter than the 26" allowed in the SBS classification.Quote:
(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
Also indicated in Definition 1c. on the pages of the ATF Form 1 here:
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf
I also use the collapsed length, as it's the shortest it will get. I have seen a letter floating around instructing another ATF "customer" to use stock extended.
It's my belief that ATF letters tend to apply only to those they are addressed, because circumstances can vary wildly from person to person.
Well, US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921 defines a Short Barrel Rifle as:
(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
So any rifle that has an overall length of less then 26" is technically a SBR. Now admittedly that would be had to accomplish with a barrel longer then 16" in length, at least in an AR platform.
Oh, seem I was beat too it.
collapsed length length make sense because it is the shortest possible length, tough not likely to be used in that matter. Many people don't used it completely extended either, so it could be used anywhere in between.
Seems there is no consensus on the issue. :confused:
27 CFR 479.11 states "The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore." The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length.
Awesome, thanks for finding it!!! I guess my forms are off by a couple inches on OAL.
Page 89 righthand column, under "Firearms (h)":
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr479.11.pdf
With all due respect, did you call ATF and get that decision or interpret it from the info you quoted? Having had my hand slapped on more than one occasion by the ATF when I followed a form to the letter, I tend to want to err on the side of caution, to me that would be collapsed on a carbine style stock on the AR platform.
Short is the operative word here. If they weren't interested in concealability then we could happily make them as short as we wanted. It may never be an issue but then again... A call would work and is the best solution if you are undecided.
Except...
"The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length."
Is not expressly stated in 27 CFR 479.11. It does state "The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore."
The ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon" to mean all stocks are extended or unfolded to their maximum length. May be correct, but I have not found that in any of the definitions.
I have to believe someone has had this question before me, and called the ATF.
I would guess it not really a big deal as:
a) They can probably figure you AOL by what your stated barrel length as (in regards to building an AR).
b) Being an SBR any length is permissible, as any rifle less than 26" is by definition an SBR.
<<snip>>
I guess "EXTREME" ends could mean stock completely extended. At least untill someone changes their minds.
I've been searching and can only come up with the same information as already posted. My interpretation of extreme ends of the weapon would be to have the stock fully extended, extreme being the key word. I doubt the BATFE and I agree on all definitions but I'm sure if you call them and speak to 3 different agents you'll probably get at least 2 different answers ;)
revised April 1, 2009
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr479.11.htm
Says basically the same thing. Doesn't mention how the ATF interprets "extreme ends of the weapon".
Yep, I re-read it and while the language is clear on what it DOES say, it does not specifically say stock extended.
I'd call for sure. It won't get rejected if you put a reasonable single measurement in there either for extended or collapsed.
We know that's true based on some being approved with the extended OAL being used and with some being approved with the collapsed length being used.
Even if they change their minds, you do not indicate collapsed or extended in the form, so a small variation in OAL is typically a non-issue once it's actually registered.
At least to date.
To a different issue for now.
I understand the ATF is now requiring certain info to be on you SBR lower. This is said to now include you caliber (correct?). My lower is marked "Multi" (unacceptable to put on form 1) I put 5.56 on my form. Do I have to have 5.56 ebgraved in my lower along with my trust name and location?
My NFA Law Attorney helped me a lot with my first Form 1, and when he measured it for the OAL portion of the form, he measured it with the CTR Stock collapsed. So that is now how I measure it myself when SBR-ing a lower.
I also have an 11.5" and a 10.5" upper(s) now, so I also wrote 10.5"/11.5" in the box for "Length of Barrel" on my most current Form 1.
And just to be on the safe side, I have written a typed letter to the NFA Branch of BATFE notifying them that an 11.5" barrel will also now be used on my other SBR'd lowers that I had previously only written 10.5" down for the barrel length originally.
This is just stuff that I personally did on my own Form 1's, and BATFE Approved them and they are good to go.
-Paul
Looks like you have your answer but I will also chime in. I went with collapsed because to me the ATF is more worried about short weapons as opposed to long ones so I wanted to specify all the shortest dimensions. Like a 10.5" (or even shorter) bbl length so that way I'm approved for that length on my lower and anything longer is closer to legal so it should be acceptable. Shorter would possibly be questioned if someone really wanted to I suppose. In other words, say you put 12" and then get contacted by the ATF in person when you're running a 10.5" upper. Technically you weren't approved for an upper that short but... I don't know that anything would happen. SBR is an SBR the way I read it so the actual length really shouldn't matter. Seemed like common sense to me but what do I know?
For the reason I was advised by someone who knows way more about NFA than me to put: 'All lawful purposes and collecting.'
ATF is looking for the smallest form factor that the carbine can present in an unmodified, usable state; as such, the stock collapsed measurement is correct.
It would be less correct, though still somewhat logical, to list the length of the weapon in the firing configuration (i.e. with stock partially extended), but it would make very little sense at all to list the fully extended position, unless it were pinned in that position for whatever reason. The weapon is functional with the stock collapsed; hence, that is the measurement with which the law is primarily concerned.
Put another way, a non-NFA AR-15 carbine with an otherwise legal (16") barrel would still run afoul of the rules if it failed to meet overall length requirements with the stock collapsed. The purpose of a collapsing/telescoping/folding stock is to achieve compactness -- and it is this "compactness" aspect that the law is concerned with when determining NFA compliance.
AC
Is there any issue with putting both collapsed and extended length on the form, annotated as such? Even if that's kosher, is there a chance that they'll interpret that to mean that you are referring to two seperate weapons?
EDIT: Never mind, I did something crazy and actually looked at the Form1. Dumb question.