Good reality check thread from those that have been there and done that.
I do wish Mr. Hackathorn would become engaged in the discussion but I realize he probably has much better things to do with his time. :p
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Good reality check thread from those that have been there and done that.
I do wish Mr. Hackathorn would become engaged in the discussion but I realize he probably has much better things to do with his time. :p
From The Colonel’s Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip 3 (Volume24-Number 12-November 2004):
Gunsite is now teaching the use of the machine pistol, or "sub machine gun." We never taught the machine pistol here at Gunsite when I was in charge, for various reasons. In my opinion, it is a slob's weapon, useful only by half-trained or poorly motivated troops. It hits no harder than a pistol and it is no more portable than a rifle. Fully automatic fire in a hand held weapon is a doubtful business, useful only to use up ammunition unnecessarily. But there are certain tasks for which the machine pistol may be recommended. One of these is boat-against-boat action in dim light, plus ship-against-boat action as in the repelling of borders. The machine pistol is also useful as a murder weapon wherein several unarmed victims are confined within an enclosed space. These uses never attracted me, and I did not think that Gunsite customers would be attracted either, but if machine pistol training is something Gunsite customers want, it will be provided. It has always seemed curious to me that European police have preferred the machine pistol to the shotgun, deeming the latter to be too barbarous, whereas in the United States the reverse is true, and the police prefer the shotgun to the MP.
Back when I was doing product evaluation for Uncle Sugar, I really enjoyed the machine pistol, since Uncle was providing the ammunition. In this job I got to be pretty good with the weapon, since I did a great deal of shooting with all sorts of models. The trick to managing fully automatic fire in a hand held weapon is to let the piece ride on its own recoil while the shooter releases vertical support during the burst. This is easy to learn, but it does not come naturally.
The Colonel also mentioned the Machine Pistol in “To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth.” I do not have the volume in front of me at this time, but I seem to recall that he mentioned that it is also particularly useful for “stalking a man in his own home.” The Colonel was not a fan of the Machine Pistol, and that seems to be very clear. He was quite handy with one though. Through our correspondence I asked him about the famous picture of him shooting a Thompson off of his chin, with three empty casings in the air. He replied that it was easy and he would show me the next time I visited him. He did and it is a very neat trick that I use to this day when demonstrating the controlability of a MP. I also have that framed picture (a copy of the original he arraigned for me) of him shooting the Thompson hanging in a place of honor in my home.
To play devil’s advocate in this discussion I will also include the thoughts of another friend of mine, the late Mario Martinez, Jr. (former Commander of the third largest Sheriff’s Office SWAT team in the Country at that time). Mario was quite fond of the SMG or “Machine Pistol,” particularly the HK offerings. He was a wizard with those instruments and I took several SMG Instructor courses from him throughout the years.
He saw a place for the “short barreled carbine (rifle caliber)” in domestic LE work, but preferred the SMG for the majority of SWAT, high risk warrant service, and hostage rescue call outs. His reasoning for this is as follows:
It does not require a suppressor in close confinements, and is easier on the ears when fired in tight spaces as opposed to the SBR.
When you shorten a carbine down to the 10.5-11.5” barrel you decrease reliability (this is before the advent of the various piston uppers and newer breed of SBRs). You then hang a suppressor off of the end of it (to help reduce your hearing damage from it going off in tight spaces) and bring it back up to carbine length, so you still have a longer weapon then a MP5A2.
It shoots a pistol caliber round that is less expensive than 5.56, this allows for more practice with the weapon and being chambered for a pistol cartridge there is less wear and tear on the gun, so it last a good bit longer than an SBR.
His SOP was to make head shots whenever available, so this negated the debate on body armor for him.
He was not worried about ranges past 75 yards in an urban environment and was fully capable with a SMG at this range. He also had designated marksman coverage and a team member or two with a carbine. Note that (as I stated above) he did see the place for the SBR or carbine in domestic LE and used them appropriately. He just preferred the MP5 for interior work, but realized its strengths and limitations.
As for me, I am quite fond of the MP5 and am issued a sample of one at work. I also like the AR and am issued one of those as well (16” middy). I think that both have their places, but it is important to fully understand the strengths and weakness of both platforms and to train accordingly.
Good article. I agree that a sub in 9mm quickly loses effectiveness once your ranges increase.
I was very impressed with this FBI 10mm MP5 compared to a std 9mm model. At fifty yds and beyond.... it hit steel plates with far more authority than the nine did. We were using both 190 and 200 gr loads.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2.../mp5bmwfrt.jpg
FN in MT
So I personally have never done any formal training on the MP5, however, could someone in the know explain to me what the commonly accepted and taught method is to do an emergency reload? (No, "transition to your secondary" is not the answer I am looking for. :p)
Lock bolt to rear using charging handle. Eject spent mag. Replace with full mag. Slap charging handle to chamber a round.
This is done because the mag springs on MP5 magazines are often very stiff and difficult to seat on a closed bolt. Mags are also downloaded by a few rounds for the same reason.
I remember watching the Hollywood shoot out on the news and feeling helpless. I can only image how the officers there felt.
I think the officers went to a local gun shop and left with AR's. I also read some jerk wanted them charged with violation of CA gun laws no waiting period it back ground check....
I will stick with my SBR.
I think a lot of people lose sight of that in these discussions.
While the MP5 would have been almost useless (along with handguns and pump shotguns) in a situation like the North Hollywood bank robbery, they have their place.
I don't think you need any better example than the Princess Gate SAS raid to see the effectiveness of the MP5 for certain applications. Ironically it was that incident which made everyone jump on the MP5 bandwagon in the first place.
And it was the North Hollywood Bank Robbery that forced everyone to reconsider the limitations of things like the MP5 in other applications. After Princess Gate people wanted to use the MP5 for everything, even applications where it was not particularly suitable. With North Hollywood people finally were forced to recognize the limitations of the 9mm round for every application and as a result everyone is jumping on the M4 for every application, even those when there might be more suitable tools for the job.
We do it every time, we will continue to do it.
Did no one take issue with the author mentioning a virtue of the MP5 is reduced ballistics in case of friendly fire? WTF?