Here is a link to a great article about the MP5 (by the master, Ken Hackathorn).
http://www.tacticalmedicine.com/files/BGun2009.pdf
Printable View
Here is a link to a great article about the MP5 (by the master, Ken Hackathorn).
http://www.tacticalmedicine.com/files/BGun2009.pdf
Thanks for the link. The recent importation of MP5 type firearms manufactured by MKE has rekindled my interest in this platform. The MP5 has long been one of my favorite firearms. They are a dream to shoot.
I will always have a soft spot for the MP5. I have wanted one for a long time and will most likely continue wanting one.
I had dinner with Mr. Hackathorn after a class a few years back. He said almost everything that is in that article. I remember some other folks at the table giving him the stink eye. He didn't seem concerned.
Good article. I fell in love with the MP5 after having an opportunity to famfire it before our push into Kuwait many years ago. I've wished I could have one ever since.
Greg - thank you for posting the link to this! It was a freakin' fantastic article IMO... It is nice now and again to get a REALITY CHECK from an individual who is able to ladle them out from a giant pot of experience.
Always good to read an article from Ken.
The MP5 is just friggin' cool as hell. There's nothing in the firearms world as cool as slapping that bolt handle to chamber a round.
Take that crap to the MP5smg.net! ;)
Really interesting read, two things I noticed:
While I don't doubt his rationale that the M4 might have some "Superbowl" appeal, I thought one of the main reasons that the swtich was made was because of more body armor on BGs, like in West Hollywood shootout?
I thought his comment about the difficulty in taking the safety once it is shoulder mounted was interesting. Wouldn't the gun be used mostly by officers in a stack, where they would have the guns on safe until they were ready to shoot.
I've only shot an MP5 and MP5K a couple of times and they are a hoot. I got the GSG-5 to play around with and let people plink with.
Well I think that Ken made a good point in the article. The MP5 is an indoor CQB weapon and the West Hollywood thing was an outdoor running gunfight. So if that incident did in fact contribute to the switch, then the rationale in that instance may have been flawed.
Great article. Thanks for the link.
Nevermind...
that was a great article. made a lot of sense.
I am indeed fortunate to have had the opportunity to have been instructed in the proper use of the MP-5 last Summer by Mr. Hackathorn himself.
I would love to win the lottery and be able to afford one.
The problem is that you never know when your indoor gunfight is going to transition to the outdoors...
For example, as you are moving up to a house with a long driveway to serve a high risk warrant, the Bad Guys decide to start shooting before you get a chance to stack and enter; your team is pinned down 50-100 yards from the dwelling--if you only have MP5's, you might be in a world of hurt.
Same scenario, but this time when the bad guys see you coming, they jump into vehicles, egress at high speed, and engage your team in a mobile running gunfight--once again, MP5's are not the weapon of choice to be stuck with in this situation.
You are called to an active shooter scenario at a mall--even inside the structure you may have 100+ yard shots; if the bad guys are able to get outside, you potentially have even longer shots across parking lots. Once again, here is another situation when the MP5 is not the gun of choice.
If they still made the MP5 in 10mm, then I'd feel a bit better about carrying an MP5, however, as much fun and handy as MP5's are, most times I'd prefer an AR15.
In today's world, if you are a SWAT officer and are only wearing IIIa armor, you should seriously re-think your protocols.
Yeah, you definitely need to keep some rifles around.
I was lucky enough to be a C3 back when MP5's were cheap as dealer sample keepers.
The MP5SD is my favorite one of bunch and a blast to shoot.
I believe that Ken's point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well.
Like PDW's, SMG's are niche weapons. In their niche, they work pretty good.
"elieve that Ken's point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well. "
Exactly. And it might be closer to 95-98%
The guys from Metro who ended the fight were actually armed with AR15's...Quote:
"the cops at the hollywood shooting were armed with handguns and shotguns only correct?"
------------------------
Maybe things are different elsewhere in the country, but for greater than 50% of the SWAT call-outs around here, a carbine is a far better choice than an SMG.
Lethality: For a very long time, a lot of well respected teams were doing just fine permanently killing people with MP5s. Having said that, I doubt anyone would argue that the 9mm round from a subgun has the same lethality as a properly selected 5.56mm round.
Body armor: At the ranges for which the MP5 is really intended, rapid accurate head shots are not much of a challenge... see how MP7s are being used currently OCONUS as further evolution of that concept. But realizing the BG has armor and switching to head shots (if you're not just making them routinely) takes more time than just shooting to the chest and not worrying about soft armor. As plates become more commonplace among evildoers, that equation might shift.
Range: Again, cannot argue that the 5.56mm is superior here.
Plusses in favor of the MP5 are maneuverability, size (especially suppressed), loudness (especially suppressed), and durability.
There are roles for which the MP5 is superior and roles for which the M4 and its ilk are superior. There's no rule that says every single guy on scene at a call out needs to have the exact same primary.
The MP5SD is a terrible choice for anything but fun at the range.
Personally, if I was faced with a situation that I can address with either the MP5 or AR15, I'd still choose the AR15. The reality is the AR15 can handle situations that the MP5 is suited for; but the same cannot be said of the MP5 for situations that the AR15 can handle.
A well-informed source tels me that after the Mogadishu incident of "Blackhawk Down" fame, most of the guys of the 160th SOAR ditched their MP5s for M4s both for effectiveness and compatibility with the rest of the military.
All our local SWAT team ditched their MP5s for M4s a half-dozen years ago because: (a) METT-T - some of our schools have hallways that are too long for the MP5, pistol, or the shotgun and (b) the customer HK provided was inadequate (actually, very poor - so poor that one agency recently replaced their HK USP .45s with Glock 21SFs). YMMV.
The MP5SD barrel is ported to reduce the velocity of 115gr ball to subsonic.
There is no reason LE should use 115gr ball, much less at reduced velocity. LE use that requires subsonic stealth seems a bit of a stretch, especially with reduced terminal performance trade off.
The big reason is that factory 147gr HP ammo is subsonic in a standard barrel, AND designed for terminal performance at that velocity. So you can have quiet and terminal performance.
The calculus is a little different for non-LE folks when one considers the cost of a 5.56mm carbine or SBR versus an MP5.
I think Mr. Hackathorn's article makes a good argument for downplaying some of the supposed justifications for switching from the MP5 to the M4 or SBR type platforms. I think he overplays the difference in size - the picture shows a 14.5" or 16" carbine with a suppressor, versus a MP5 without a suppressor and with a retractable stock, retracted. Not a fair comparison. The difference between a 10.5" carbine and a MP5 with a fixed stock is minimal.
He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
Aside from cost, I'm not real fond of the MP5 in terms of ergonomics (safety) and manual of arms (reloading an empty gun).
How does it compare to the KAC 6x35mm?
That is indeed an unhelpful photo. Extend the stock on the MP5 and add a suppressor, and the guns are nearly the same length.
What I gathered from that portion of the article is that the MP5 is a safer choice, because cops have a tendency to shoot other cops. Gosh, how about we don't do that?Quote:
He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
(And while we're at it, how about we help accomplish that by getting serious about NDs, too. Really serious. Like loss of pay. Time off. No more SWAT. Lose your G-ride. Being the meter-maid.)
Another thought: Wasn't it the NTOA (or maybe ITEMS) that crunched the data on ops injuries and OISs, and found that when cops shoot other cops in the tactical environment, it was mostly lower extremity injuries, where armor would not play a role anyway? That would seem to negate the comparative safety margin of the HK a bit.
From the article:
In addition, the instructional norm with the HK was to have troop run with the safety off rather than on when the gun was or about to be in play. The norm is the opposite with the M16/AR type, as the safety is easily accessible from the firing grip for the majority of shooters. Those running ARs safety off seem to be folks that transitioned from the HK. This difference would seem to be helpful as well.Quote:
However, the most important drawback to the M4 is the often overlooked fact that if one of the team members is armed with a .223, there is at least one weapon present that can penetrate most police body armor. Accidents happen, and the level of injuries related to friendly fire in police shoot-outs is often a hidden statistic. The Emergency Services Unit (ESU) of the NYPD, easily the team with the most number of callouts in the nation, still issues MP5s. Why? As one team leader said, “We don’t want to kill one of our own guys. An M4 can do that, but an MP5 can’t.”
6x35 mm fired from an 8" barrel performs dramatically better than 9 mm from an MP5; for that matter 6x35 mm terminal performance is also superior to 10mm from an MP5/10.