NFA items are illegal in jersey right? Im going to ask a cop tomorrow but i did research and it seems this is true.
What makes this illegal if thats the case? its not automatic
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ey=LWR-BCM-NFA
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NFA items are illegal in jersey right? Im going to ask a cop tomorrow but i did research and it seems this is true.
What makes this illegal if thats the case? its not automatic
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ey=LWR-BCM-NFA
It's registered as a SBR, short barreled rifle. Meaning its for use with an upper that has a less than 16" barrel.
ok thank you ill jus get the other lower
No, by law, if it does not have bbl or the bbl is >16 (and it meets oal) it is not an SBR. Thus that picture is not an SBR. Put a 16 bbl on it is legally just another rifle.
I never looked at the photo, but he asked about a short barrelled rifle. If an SBR, the lower is the registered item. If it is registered, the length of the barrel - 11.5", 14.5", 16", 20" etc. - is irrelevant. You still own an SBR until removed from the registry.
My understanding is that you haven't constructed and/or aren't in possession of an SBR unless you've mounted an upper on it with less than a 16 inch barrel.
The question might be moot. Will the BATF approve a Form 4 or a Form 1 for an SBR for someone who lives in New Jersey where SBRs are illegal by statute? Will the local CLEO sign off on it?
Apparently you never looked at the law, the ATF rulings, or the Case Law either. :-)
It is not an SBR if it is not in an SBR configuration. Thus without a BBL, it is not an SBR.
[(8) The term ``short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
If it does not HAVE a bbl, it cannot be an SBR. Registration staus has nothing to do with it. SBR receivers are not defined the same way MG receivers are.
ATF letter saying transporting a registered SBR receiver across state lines is not a violation since it is not a SBR (page 2, but entire letter shown) - Page 1, Page 2,Page 3
Being a C3 for about thirty years now, I can speak from experience. You are not correct in your assessment. Oh, and I do know the law, and I also know how BATFE operates. One letter to one guy is not neccesarily the same as another letter to a different guy. Nor does it preclude them from changing their mind, at any time, for any reason. Bottom line is, and it states so in the letter, the registered item is in fact the receiver, period.
Like I stated, what barrel you have on it is irrelevant, the receiver is in the NFA registry as a SBR regardless of what configuration you may have it in. For interstate transportation purposes though, if you don't want to break the law, or don't want to tell BATFE where you are going, then put a longer barreled upper and no one would even check. But who cares anyway? That is the whole purpose of registering the receiver as an SBR, so you can have an SBR. So you put a longer barreled upper on it so you can take it from Texas to Oklahoma? So what. That is the only ‘advantage’ if you want to call it that. That doesn't mean the receiver is not an NFA item, because it is. You are basing your whole position on one guy’s letter that apparently wants to take his SBR somewhere. Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
By the way, you are mostly incorrect in your statement referencing SBR receivers not being ‘defined’ the same as machine gun receivers. Obviously they don't have the same litteral definition relative to function but can in configuration. For example, Hk’s in SBR configuration. Ever think of that? Nope, you didn’t.
In the AR series of weapons, the SBR designation is basically a CYA. Protects you a bit is all.
WTF?
Coleslaw,
What he meant was that in NJ SBR's are illegal. Please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know you can only have MG's and AOW's.
No, it's not.
A SBR is defined in statute. If a rifle does not meet that legal definition, it is not subject to the provisions of the NFA, period. This is not a matter of interpretation, nor can ATF "change their mind."
Until Congress changes the definition of a short-barreled rifle contained in 26 USC 5845(a) to include language referring to a firearm's presence on the NFRTR, that fact is utterly and completely irrelevant, with regard to SBR's.
So...a registered receiver is not an SBR. It appears that nothing is an SBR unless it has a barrel attached that is less the 16 inches and/or the package is less that 26 inches OAL.
I still question whether or not BATF would even process a Form 1 or Form 4 for an SBR for someone that lives in New Jersey. It does appear that the CLEO can't sign off since he has to certify that possession of the specified weapon wouldn't violate state or local laws, but I don't know what BATF would do with Form 1/Form 4 for a trust, where CLEO signature isn't needed.
You are grossly mistaken my friend. If a scenario arose where the ATF "changed their mind", you may win in court, but it will cost you plenty. Read that carefully, PLENTY. So if you have the pockets and want to fight them over your SBR, by all means do so. Most here will support you in spirit I am sure.
Really. I see several individuals that are quick to reference law, ordinances, rulings, etc. We can all do internet searches and read, but I wonder what real world experience they have.
This whole discussion really revolves around one weapon, the AR15. Due to the fact you can easily swap uppers, it creates a loophole if you will. That doesn't absolve anyone of the responsibility of owning an NFA regulated item, which it is. Granted, by removing the shorty upper it changes the configuration and by caveat it isn't regulated, but the receiver is still registered. And as stated previously if the only advantage is being able to transport interstate, who cares?
It's because I lived in NJ and understand the bullshit that they pull with their gun laws. Yes you can technically "own" machine guns and AOW's but the reality of it is that the permits to own one are never issued just like CCW permits. You'd have an easier time finding a unicorn than a NJ full auto owner.
Yeah, try and sell it w/o a transfer and see what happens. I think that some are taking this NFA registry thing a bit lightly. Yes, we all agree if an AR15 registered SBR lower doesn't have a short barrel on it, it can be construed as nothing more than a lower - except that it is registered and requires a transfer tax for individuals. Of course you can remove it from the registry if you so desire.
Again, this SBR, non-SBR 'rule' as applied to AR15's seems to mean little unless you want to swap uppers around and/or take the weapon across state lines. Otherwise, it doesn't mean dick. I mean, unless you just gotta have an 11.5" upper, why bother.
I don't disagree. It's a weird interpretation from them but it is what it is....enjoy:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...-shotguns.html
I don't think you are following me. While the law states that you can have them the reality is that the state never approves the application for one. It's not just highly restricted. For all intents and purposes they are banned. You can say in theory they are available but the reality is you'll find a unicorn running around the Garden State long before the state issues a permit for a machine gun.
No offense taken, but it is more than my 'opinion', it is experience. You don't know me and don't have to read nor agree with anything I am saying. That is your perogative. I am not being combative nor trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. I am only attempting to dissimenate a little info in an effort to possibly lend a hand.
I don't know you, what you have shot, owned, bought, sold, and most importantly if you have ever transferred via form 3 and/or form 4. I don't know if you have ever manufactured anything. I don't know if you have ever practiced the art of gunsmithing.
I do know that you are apparently taking the exact verbiage of laws and are interpreting those laws as you understand them. I don't know if you are an attorney and/or have any experience in that field or are used to reading public laws, codes, and regs. There is a difference between the three you know.
By the sound of it though, I highly doubt you have ever been through an ATF audit.
Remember this, there it the right way, the wrong way, and the way it is.
No offense, but you do not know any of us either. For example, I am an 07/02.
I know when I MAKE an SBR, the Form 2 asks for a BBL length, and I can assure you I correctly put the length on the form. Likewise, when it xfers out on form 3/4, I also put the correct BBL length. Putting a BBL length on the form when there is no BBL is a Federal Felony.
So tell us mr. 30 years in the business, when you xfer a SBR lower only, what barrel length do you put on the F3/4? Do you sign the forms?
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...FE/Perjury.jpg
Would you put the bbl length you intend to use? I am waiting for a tax stamp on a complete factory lower it was not sold to me with an upper. The form 4 indicated a bbl length of 10.5" I have another SBR with a 10.5" upper. I wanted to use a 11.5" upper on the second lower.
Wow mr. 07/02, why are you so hostile? What is your point?
If you are who you say and do what you do, then you should know, the SBR receiver is a item in the NFA registry. You can't sell it w/o a transfer, and as you have added, a barrel length! Wa la! You win the prize! So to tell people an AR15 lower receiver isn't an SBR w/o a shorty or 16' and longer upper is not entirely true.
I haven't transferred an SBR is many, many years. No money in it. Just a 'cool' factor for the internet commandos doesn't interest me.
How many SBR's have you manufactured? Tranferred? When was your last audit? How long did it take? Paying your excise tax on stuff you manufacture or your not doing that type of manufacturing? Just putting shorty uppers on AR15's is what you manufacture? I hope you are having much success with your business and "who you know". "Maybe a family member is a Superior Court Judge with authority to sign?"
You know you can respond to multple posts from others in one post of your own. Takes up a lot of bandwidth doing individual responses to each item. Just a thought.
Suffice it to say that once I deduct your Internet Anonymity Credential Inflation, you and I have probably been messing with NFA stuff for around the same amount of time.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3/DSCN1341.jpg
And unless during one of your audits ATF claimed that presence on the registry was enough to make a 16"+ barreled rifle/shotgun a NFA firearm, I don't really see what an ATF audit has to do with this question.
So far, we've seen US Code, we've seen Tech Branch letters, and the NFA Handbook.
And then we've seen your vague opinions and appeal to "experience."
Do you know of someone charged with a NFA violation with a 16"+ barreled rifle/shotgun?
Do you know of any language, either in statute, the CFR, or any case law that says being on the registry is enough to make a 16"+ barreled rifle subject to the NFA?
Because if not, I'm kind of missing how your experience adds anything to this discussion.
Sure, I get that govt bureaucrats can be capricious and arbitrary. I get that "you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."
But we're talking the law here, and the law doesn't say what you claim it does, and ATF can't change it to make it so.
With all due respect bullshit. Before it even gets to a judge the Prosecutor has to responsibility to conduct an investigation to determine if the person applying has a justifiable need, not want, to own a NFA item. Being a family member of a Judge does not meet that statutory requirement nor can a Judge issue a permit for a family member. If a Justice did they would find themselves disbarred.
In my years of living in NJ I had the honor of knowing two very well connected gun collectors. Guys who's collections easily exceeded $100,000. These two guys (I met one through the other) routinely had Governors and Attorney General's over for dinner or out for a round of golf. Neither one could ever sniff a full auto weapon, much to their chagrin. In all my time in that state and the dozens of ranges I shot at I never once saw an NFA item outside a Class III dealer or in the hands of a LEO.
With all due respect, the BATFE issues a report on the number of NFA items in each state. Small Arms Review PUBLISHES a portion of it each year. You may want to check it out, and then tell BATFE their report is bullshit.
Lots of it is owned by vets as WWII takebacks, and as these vets pass, the stuff is showing up. This has been in the news a lot. I am not suggesting folks are getting F1/F4s on a regular basis, just that transferable NFA does exist in NJ.
ETA:
Those kinds of politicians are not going to help anybody in this regard. Too high profile. It is not much different than an FFL/SOT getting a demo letter - not going to get it from the Supt of State Police, but there are lots of small departments that will sign.
To everyone involved. The OP has asked a legitimate question. Let's keep this on track and not turn it into a penis measuring contest.
As I stated in a previous post according to Guntrustlawyer.com they state that MG's and AOW's are allowed per statute. Whether it is happening isn't the issue.
If someone can locate pertinent sections of NJ that would be nice.
The sarcasm aside, I went and looked in a couple of older A&D books and found more than I remembered. It has been about 10 years and more, but I had Terry Dyer do more than a few Hk 94's/MP5's and 93's/53's so guys could swap sears and not have to marry the sear to the host weapon. That was about the time of the end of most of the loose Flemming sears that were stashed. I could not find an AR15, and even though I didn't look too hard, I don't believe I have ever done one. I don't recall it. I guess I never saw the point.
I misunderstood what you meant. It sounded to me as though you didn't want anyone to have SBR's and they should be illegal. I am sure local authorities in NJ know firearms regs in their own state or know where to look or who to ask if they don’t.
There has been a movement for years to get the "LE endorsement" removed from form 4's. So far, no luck.
What I meant by internet commando's is guys read all this internet stuff, get fired up, and think they look cool, but there is no real advantage and in fact, most folks are better off with a 16" or even a 14.5" with a pinned FH version if they must have a "shorty". I don’t think too many of the participants here are room clearing. SBR AR15's aren't really worth the trouble. Different strokes I guess. My .02.
If you have “been messing with NFA stuff for around the same amount of time” then you must know what a pain in the ass an audit can be. Particularly if you have a large inventory, do many transfers, and just the fact that is seems they are working overtime as of late.
And yes, they do look at everything, I said everything whether it is on the registry or not. They definitely want to see SBR’s and SBS’s. My only experience during audit with SBR’s was the aforementioned Hk stuff.
Hey, if you are comfortable with the way you do it, more power to you. As stated, I don’t have the experience with SBR AR15’s that I could find in my A&D. Whatever the case, if an item is in the registry, regardless of what configuration it is in, I treat it as such. That is me.
Nope. I do know people that have had problems with other issues that I questioned the validity. Again, with these guys, you gotta prove you are right, not that they are wrong.
Nope. I will reiterate, AR15’s are a loophole. That is it. As stated, to me it doesn’t matter what upper is on it, the receiver is still in the NFA registry and I will treat it at such. That is the way I would handle it, my experience. I like to fly below the radar and don’t see the point in raising – any points. You may have a different philosophy.
You may recall the jerkoffs that ruined the Olympic receiver swap. Reading all this crap on the internet forums and decide to contact ATF on the legality of sending in a ‘damaged’ A1 receiver to Olympic and getting a new A2 receiver as a replacement. A few got out before ATF slammed the door.
Or how about Bowers and the little .22 ‘’invention” he was part of. Had a LETTER OF APPROVAL from tech branch for the item. Sold a bunch and guess what, AFT CHANGED THEIR MIND and ruled the stock a machine gun AFTER THE FACT. That is a fact.
The moral of the two stories is for the most part in many instances they can do what they want, when they want, on a whim. Their interpretation means more than yours or mine unfortunately. They have and will probably again pass a regulation that might contradict law, and it can get real expensive to argue a point.
Someone said in this thread ‘once a machine gun, always a machine gun’. I feel the same way with SBR AR’s. That is how I would handle it personally. Again, you may have a different philosophy.
On another note, I see a lot of tax stamps there. I can say that many tax stamps is indicative of very little business with dealers, a nice personal collection, or you have a good amount of items ready to ship. Which is it?
Have a Billistics or Flemming pack in the AUG? Also notice a Randall case in the photo. You do Randall’s?