Against soft targets, what is the furthest shot you would take with a typical 16" carbine in 5.56?
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Against soft targets, what is the furthest shot you would take with a typical 16" carbine in 5.56?
Sorry I didn't make myself too clear. I know the technical limitations, but my Q should have been more about realistic limitations. Would you be confident in an 800 yd shot, assuming you would get the hit?
do WHAT?
you must have come over from TOS.
what kind of nonsense is this? why would one ever ask such a question?
what are the atmospheric conditions/weather?
what kind of optic are you running?
what's the load and/or bullet weight?
are you benched or off hand?
please think before you type.
I'm not thinking a specific optic, or load...My inquiry is more about the longest possible range at which 5.56 would be effective. For the sake of argument, let's say a 75g TAP, or a 77 SMK...
Yea, and he posted this same question on TOS....:rolleyes:
550 meters on point targets out of a 14.5" M4 with iron sights.
There's no magic bullet's You question is one a 14yr old would ask.
Man, why do you guys have to be so hard on me askin this question??? Really. I don't think it's a stupid question. It's just asking about the range limitations of the 5.56 out of a 16" bbl. I know there are no magic bullets, and there are many variables to be considered. You guys are really looking too much into a simple question.
It really depends for me anyway with how well could I see/locate the target, optics used, weather conditions and ammo capability. I've shot well beyond 500yds before on human sized steel targets but at a match in NC in the rain I had trouble seeing LaRue steel at 300yds with a 1.5-5x scope because my scope fogged up on the outside of the lens (and it was crazy humid probably 95%). It was summer time and everyone started the stage with muzzle up leaning against the back of a van with rain filling the my objective lens and I didn't have a scope cap, hard lesson learned now I carry around bikini type scope cap for such occasions. For effectiveness of .223 I personally wouldn't count on it past about 500yds
A very well known good friend of mine Travis Haley when with Blackwater in that video in Al Najaf Iraq was hitting insurgents out to 650 meters and slightly beyond using 77gr ammo using a 20" 1x7 Bushmaster with a 3.5-10x Leupold IIRC. In the video his spotter says something about 800 meters but Travis said they were just guessing and were guessing too far. He said even though he was making good hits many times it required more than hit to kill/stop. He told me that he had wished he had something bigger like a .308
Wow...Thanks, GotM4, for a reasonable answer. These guys here have got me feeling like a troll.
For a first round hit? I would limit myself to 500 yard give or take. Im not good enough to make a first round hit at 750 yet. Usually takes me 2-5 rounds to get on target good at that range depending on the conditions.
I also usually shoot a few different types of ammo, and the clicks are different enough each one has to be adjusted to make hits. If all I shot was one type of ammo through one gun it would be easier for me.
The hardest part is reading the wind. At 750 you can have wind going 3 different directions between you and the target. Swirly or gusty wind is a real bitch. A change in just 5MPH can throw you a few feet off with a 556.
Depends on the following: Skill of shooter, type of weapon (stock vs match), ammo (match vs quality vs cheap ball), environmental weather factors (sunny, cloudy, wind direction, humidity, elevation), and shooting position. 500M is probably the realistic range. There are anecdotal first hand accounts of folks getting hits out to 800M with a standard M-4 on BGs, but I think that's a far stretch for the average shooter, weapon and ammo. At that extream range, I doubt there's enough energy left in the round to cause any significant damage to a human target (to penetrate 12 inches or more, and fragment) other than to poke shallow holes. The threshold for proper fragmentation is 0-200M.
I have an 18 inch diameter manhole cover on the side of a hill out in the desert. With an ACOG, 500 yard shots from elbows (no sandbags, no bipod) are not hard at all. My 10 year old kid hits it 75% of the time.
The spot we are in does not give us a good 600 yard shot, so I am going to have to work on that.
Hang in there ZTF, you got three answers from some knowledgable and experienced guys, and more will chime in. Nothing wrong with your question. Just look at the spelling and punctuation in the posts from the guys giving you hell, they have to resort to that kind of stuff because they can't help it.
Yeah I was going to mention you're way past fragmentation range. Ive heard of the 750/800 hits, too, and you don't hear how many times they tried that before while missing, ect. Especially with military ball ammo its luck to make a 1st round hit even at 500. Even with a perfect gun and shooter the spread of those rounds is greater than the torso size of a human let alone the upper center chest area. I notice a HUGE difference in hits at 500 on larues between match and ball ammo. Add into that shooter exhaustion, combat stress, ect, and its just not likely for a soldier. On a perfect range with benches, solid rests, quality ammo and rifle a 1st round 500 hit is easily doable.
[QUOTE=RogerinTPA;827793 500M is probably the realistic range. The threshold for proper fragmentation is 0-200M.[/QUOTE]
This is the type of answer I was seeking. Nothing specific. I appreciate the feedback guys.
BillyBronco and Harv: Please stop being so Douche-baggy.
Thanks.
Thank you D. Christopher. I just get critical of myself. Often when I shouldn't.
Easy hitman. My first question is why this is even a question. You said it was a simple question, but it's far from it. You would be ok at 500 yards putting holes in paper, but if you are shooting zombies at that range, I would upgrade to .308
There is no answer. A .223" hole in the right place is always potentially lethal. The 5.56 round will penetrate deeply into human tissue as far as it will fly.
A wounded enemy @ 800m is a good result in my book. So it comes down to the conditions, your equipment and skill, and a bit of luck.
I group my weapons in overlapping ranges. Pistol: 0-50, 5-25 best. Shotgun 0-75 (slug), 5-25 best (00 buck). My SBR: 0-300, 5-200 best. With 16" barrel: 0-500, 10-300 best. Finally, I have a 300wm bolt gun. 100-1200 yds, 300-1100 best range. I, however, am not nearly good enough to exploit that potential. I can shoot my other firearms decent to what I consider their max. effective ranges (and have a lot of experience doing so), not the 300WM.
Tmanker: It is a simple question...I did say 'soft target' and not paper.
Strambo: Think of this, for example...A 150# deer. You have a 16" bbl'd 5.56. Choose your optic. I don't want to take a chance of slight wounding/unnecessary suffering. If it's at 350yds, do you take the shot? 400?
See where I'm going with this? Sure you can benchrest/go prone...Let's say the wind is little to no issue. Maybe I've made my question clearer with this description.
Thank you guys for the feedback. I apologize for posting such a vague question.
Hitman
This came up recently around here recently and the successful engagement ranges have been a lot further than people think with 5.56. I think we will see a lot more examples of successful long range engagement with the Squad Advanced Marksman and Squad Designated Marksman working in the shitbox. Specifically here is quote from M4Guru about shooting bad guys with his 16" Noveske.
How about 790 yards with a Mk12 Mod1 and AA53 (Mk262)
I've made decent hits on a 20" gong to 800yds, the mechanical limit of the BDC in the scope on my 16" Recce and Federal Gold Medal match 77gr SMK.
Cameron
Wow! Very impressive! As far as my capabilities....Well, let's just say, I wouldn't attempt anything near these ranges. I'd be comfy at a max of 300 with my 1x RDS...I've seen reports of long range shots, but most are with SPR type set-ups. I'd love to get an SPR upper one day.
Personally, The only time I would use the .223/5.56 on deer would be headshot intentions only. There are just too many superior hunting cartriges out there.
My preferances aside, (according to my free downloaded ballistics calculator) a 62gr .223 has about 300ft-lbs @ 400 yards, while a 150gr .308 has about 1040ft-lbs (about the same energy as the .223 @ 60yds) I know you specified 75gr, but this is what I have to work with.
But, energy is only one point of interest. Shot placement is key, and 'effective range" is left up to you, and your shooting ability.
If you could consistantly hit a deer's heart at 350yds, go for it. If you are anything less than confident, take a cartrige with a little more wiggle room.
The .223 will take out a deer, but I still like a stronger round for that particular job.
No, I would not take this shot at 350 yards. I feel it would be unethical to do so as I feel the round would not produce a clean, humane kill. When using a 5.56/223 for deer sized game, one must choose a properly constructed bullet, regardless of range.
At 350 yards, I'd be studying the terrain to see if I couldn't stalk at least another 150 yards closer, regardless of caliber
I can consistently make hits on a man size plate out to 750 yards with my 16 inch Noveske barreled AR. My MK12 ish clone can go out to 800 yards easily all day. SSA 77 SMK and my 77Gr hand loads seem to do the trick. I don’t know how affective it would be on a human target, but I wouldn’t want to get hit by it. Here is some video of me and my buddy shooting at the plates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LBRoFQZLOo
i've shot irons out to 500yds. with 55gr. ball. no issues, i hit about 95% of the time. shooting a deer i wouldn't shoot past 150. i think .223/5.56 is alittle lite on deer at distance.
I think the answer for me would be more in the line of at what distance can I identify an individual as being a threat and warranting the use of deadly force on my part.
I live and work within CONUS. The rules of engagement that our armed forces work under in Iraq and Afghanistan do not apply to me as a civilian or while at work as a LEO, living and working within CONUS.
Can I identify which person out of a group of individuals is the one who is armed and shooting at me from 500yds, 600 yds, 800 yds?
If you are far enough away to not be able to ID the threat, and are not in a military engagement, I question whether you should be firing at that time. Even if you have the ability to hit the target from that distance, if you are unable to determine the target you are shooting at is the actual threat, then you shouldn't be shooting.
I have shot my wilson combat UT15 to 700 with an ACOG and made first round hits on steel. With my M4 I never shot past 500 with irons but with practice your confidence grows and first round hit become more common for me.
While this is great info, it is not regarding the purpose of this post. I'm a Civvie, and any defensive situation would be around 20 FEET or so. There is little question about the effectiveness of 5.56 NATO at this range (especially with a good load). Also, at this range, ID'ing a threat would be very easy, as well (i.e. a stranger breaking into one's residence) As a civilian, I would hope to never be in a situation where I was being fired on from a distance!
My question was intended to be purely hypothetical. Also very general. Thanks for the input and thanks for your service as a LEO.
--Hitman--
IWC has a Lewis Machine & Tool, Inc MRP CQB with the 16" barrel, the standard one, not the SS version.
We have an ACOG TA11-FG Green CrossHair reticle with a LaRue Mount.
Routinely when we go on the Pawnee National Grasslands east of Timnath, CO, we're able to get 9/10 hits on a 18" x 18" steel plate at 600M, using a bipod prone, usually in slight wind.
77gr Sierra Fiocchi MK262.
All day long...
If you shoot at Pawnee with only slight wind then you are usually luckier than I am;)
This. There is a big difference in combat effectiveness and deer hunting. Please clarify your actual intent of the original question. If you're asking about hunting game, I wouldn't recommend a .223 period. However, if it's all you have, then use a properly designed bullet for hunting and limit your shots to broadside only shots through the lungs, not the shoulder.
You guys make it sound like you can't get good bullets for your guns.
Seventy yards, lung/heart/lung, stopped her(admittedly small)ass cold.
Corbon DPX Hunter 53 gr. Bullet punched through bone(not the spaces) on both sides of her rib cage and kept on flying.
http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/r...2/71124f76.jpg
I didn't clarify because my question was intended to be vague. BUT, the different responses regarding game/2-legged-upright-walking critters/paper made this worth it. I didn't have a specific 'soft target' in mind when I originally asked the Q. Just a curious question that felt OK to ask. BTW, I am no professional shooter, but I'm not a newb as well. I've been shooting the AR platform for 6 years now. I am always seeking new knowledge on this subject.
Thank all of you for the various responses.