So vie got my upper on order, now for the lower. I'm looking into billet lowers. I've found Spikes and Mega (rainier arms ). Give me the skinny, PLEASE.
They look very similar, but Mega runs $130 less. Tell me what i need to know. Thanks.
:)
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So vie got my upper on order, now for the lower. I'm looking into billet lowers. I've found Spikes and Mega (rainier arms ). Give me the skinny, PLEASE.
They look very similar, but Mega runs $130 less. Tell me what i need to know. Thanks.
:)
:):):)
[QUOTE=badboy522;875412].....
From a metallurgical standpoint, billet < forged.
The only "benefit" to fully milled receivers is consistency of dimensions between parts. Considering the machining done on a standard, forged receiver, the benefit is non-existent; however, they look really cool. :rolleyes:
Oh jeez, not sure how to respond to that first response but to the OP's question, the mega lower at least gives you the option to fit with either one of their uppers, or if you go with their GTR-3S, it'll fit nicely with a forged upper.
Anyone try the LaRue lower?
So, the only difference is the fit and finish of a billet is more consistent? I can get just as solid a fit with mil spec, forged lower attached to mil spec upper?
The Mega billet lower, with Spikes enhanced LPK is same price as Spikes mil spec forged lower, with same LPK. Which would you get?
I recently got a Spikes billet lower, its a very nice piece, it also comes with an ambi bolt release.
What makes the GTR-3H fit better with their uppers than the GTR-3S? I've thought about getting one but won't have a billet upper anytime soon but eventully will in the far future.
The GTR-3H just blends with their uppers and the GTR-3S blends with regular forged uppers. You could see the difference at rainierarms.com, it's not a huge difference.
Looked into the POF lowers or even the Larue? Sun Devil?
I believe Rainer sells three generations of the POF billet lower as well as SD.
If I had to choose a billet lower (I prefer forged), I would go with the new Mega one coming out soon.
Mega has a more "clean" look without the aggressive styling of the Spike's (the "biohazard" thing is just over the top). And the new lowers will also have an ambi-bolt release, too, which is pretty nice.
If I were you, I would hold off for a week or two and see what AXTS is going to release at SHOT. Apparently they have a revolutionary new lower receiver design that they're going to begin producing.
A billet is usually cut from a piece of extrusion which has it's grain running in only one direction. I'm assuming they cut the billet receivers so the grain runs from front to rear as that's the best. That means the grain is interrupted where the billet is machined out at places like the mag well, trigger housing and at the receiver extension mount.
In a properly made forging, the grain of the metal follows the shape of the forging. This means the flow of the grain can be used to increase strength and rigidity particularly important at points where stress risers occur, such as at the receiver extension mount. Grain density can also be increased. This allows for a stiffer, lighter, more durable part.
This isn't to say a billet made receiver is a poor choice, but overall, a well designed forging is better
I have the Mega one and like it a lot. The quality is excellent.
these ? or something new ?
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=sho...nufacturer=125
Larue is now selling lowers without having to purchase an upper. If I had to have one that is the direction I would go.
Great explanation. I have no experience with metal works, but what your saying leads me to think the extra funds may not be necessary. What do you consider to be a "well made lower"?
As for waiting until after the SHOT show next week, I'm so impatient I might not be able to wait on production. Plus, I'd be paying top $$ for the latest and greatest.
My reason for considering the billet is the tight tollerance they are suppose to have. I hate the AR wiggle! :no: I've got an RA upper coming and they've told me the mega will be an airtight fit.
As for larue, theirs looks are VERY similar to the others. I'm hearing there's only 2 or 3 companies cranking out billet and forged lowers. Everyone gets theirs from the same place and logo's it to their liking. If that's the case, I don't want to overpay for a pricey name.
Decisions, decisions....
Since the lower is prolly the least critical part of the assembly, I wouldn't feel bad about buying a $69.99 Palmetto Arms special (allegedly made by Aero Precision). Actually, since I brought that up, I believe Aero Precision makes one of the sharpest looking lowers I've seen, and from what I hear they are fine. Not expensive, either.
Tightness of upper to lower fit is irrelevant. In fact, it can actually get in the way of taking your weapon down to clear certain types of malfunctions. My suggestion is to learn how to live with whatever clearance your upper to lower has.Quote:
As for waiting until after the SHOT show next week, I'm so impatient I might not be able to wait on production. Plus, I'd be paying top $$ for the latest and greatest.
My reason for considering the billet is the tight tollerance they are suppose to have. I hate the AR wiggle! :no: I've got an RA upper coming and they've told me the mega will be an airtight fit.
I own a billet lower. A Seekins, in fact. I bought it because a friend of mine made them to advertise his company, and I like to support my friends. I wouldn't have bought a billet lower in a million years, otherwise. For $100 you can get a lot of forged lower.Quote:
As for larue, theirs looks are VERY similar to the others. I'm hearing there's only 2 or 3 companies cranking out billet and forged lowers. Everyone gets theirs from the same place and logo's it to their liking. If that's the case, I don't want to overpay for a pricey name.
Decisions, decisions....
A hot forging is made by heating the metal until it's in it's plastic state, then forced by pressure into the desired shape. When the metal flows, the grain follows the direction of the flow. A properly designed forging will take advantage of this, using the grain flow to strengthen the part.
This I can speak of from my training and experiences I've had during my career in aviation. During a company sponsored visit to a forging plant, we learned that the windscreen frame for the cockpit of one airliner, due to it's unique shape, could only be made by forging. When made from cast or machined from a billet, the frame would crack at the corners due to stress risers. When forged, they made sure the flow and density of the grain was used to strengthen the corners and reduce stress risers.
Considering the simplicity of the shape and relatively small size of AR receivers, it shouldn't be a daunting task for the engineering team of a receiver manufacturer to ensure the forging dies and process to control flow and grain density are used to best advantage. However, since I am in no way privy to inside information, it's all conjecture on my part, so I said "properly designed".
Others can tell you better than I, but from what I gather from posts made on this forum, when it comes to stripped upper & lower receivers, with a few exceptions, parts is parts.
Personally, I would advise against receivers not made from 7075 or 7175 (the latter used by Armalite to forge AR10 receivers). The properties of 7xxx series aluminum makes it stronger and more durable than the 60xx series alloy used by one company for it's receivers.
You will never be entirely free from the AR Wiggle. Competitors using ARs have tried and failed to eliminate it from their rifles in the pursuit of the ultimate in accuracy. Initially, an upper & lower can be fitted so there is no wiggle but the rifle with use will wear and there will be play. They have also found the play does not affect accuracy.
My thoughts are, to eliminate the play between the upper & lower, one would need to design the receivers with pressed bushings and when they wear, the busings and pins could be changed to tighten up the fit again. This would keep the fit tight longer without wallowing out the holes in the receivers. Since this wouldn't change accuracy, I wouldn't do it unless it's demonstrated that pin hole wear is damaging to the receivers. Since this hasn't been demonstrated to be a problem, bushing the receivers wouldn't be worth the trouble.
This is to say, you're just going to have to learn to live with the AR Wiggle!
I have the Mega GTR-3S and I'm extremely happy with it. I also have the 2 of the Mega Gator lowers and they are very nice as well.
The Mega GTR-3S
Features:
■7075 Billet Aluminum
■Flared Magwell
■Integrated Trigger Guard
■Tensioning Screw for proper Upper/Lower Fit
■3S Model - Better Match with Standard Uppers
MEGA, no question.
I have two of the Mega GTR-3S lowers, one assembled with a Spike's LPK and the other waiting to be assembled.
The quality of the Mega lowers is flawless, and the finish is especially nice. The finish is more matte, more black and more scratch resistant than other lowers I've used.
Everything posted about forgings is correct, so yes, a $70 Aero Precision forged lower is likely at least as strong, possibly stronger, than the Mega (or other billet). But lowers aren't stressed much so it doesn't really matter a lot. Your best value is an inexpensive quality forged lower like Aero Precision makes. The Mega billet just looks really cool, and is perfectly machined and finished. If you want something intermediate, a Mega forged lower gets you the strength and standardization of a forged lower, along with (presumably since I don't own one) their quality of finish.
Oh, by the way, Aero Precision makes a terrific lower too, with what also seems to be flawless machining. Finish on the AP is nice, a uniform deep black, but seems relatively delicate (vs. four other brands I own/have owned) while the Mega seems especially tough.
Billet vs. forged aside.....
get a Mega, they make some of the best fitting stuff in the AR world. Plus, there CS is amazing.
I e-mailed Mega about rail fir on there billet uppers, and the CALLED me in less then 20min.
I would not touch a Spikes with a ten foot pole. I sent them 4 emails over a 1 month time frame, a couple years ago. Never heard a word back.
I like billet lowers. Presently I have Seekins, C3 Defense, Sun Devil, TKS and some other one whose name I can't think of right now. I think Seekins makes the billet lower for Spikes but I could be wrong about that. Anyway, my opinion is to just get the lower that you like the looks of. The additional strength of forged versus billet does not matter on a low stress part such as the lower. If you want to save money, the 69 dollar lowers will work. If you want to spend a bit extra to get a certain look, that's fine too.
I have a Mega forged upper/lower on a Grendel. Based upon comments by others and my own observation, the Mega parts are very well made and finished; Mega is the manufacturer of forged and billet and their stuff is pretty cool looking, and for many, cool looking is part of the AR addiction. Due to low stress on a lower, whether it's billet or forged is not decisive, it's looks, fit, and what you want to pay. Mega is quite a bit less expensive than some "name brand" receivers, so I'd order one from Ranier and see for yourself. Often, this is the best way to determine your tastes, as well as scouting out pix posted on forums.
Not to say billet is a bad choice but keep in mind that the receiver extension mount of a lower is stressed due to the leverage exerted by the receiver extension and butt. I don't recall where, but I have seen one picture of a lower that broke at this point. I do not know under what circumstances it broke.
The focus of this thread has become about lower receivers. When I posted about forgings & billets, I was also keeping uppers in mind
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/DSC00818.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...s/DSC00819.jpg
here is my bio-hazard .22lr, that being said i would have never thought about using it for a heavy duty or real use gun. i may consider building a 5.45 upper for it but thats about it.
I love my Sun Devil! Superb fit and finish and the best customer service hands down.
Mega makes some great products.
My first Mega build was the GTR-3H mated with the MTS- quadrail.
I have a second in progress destin to become a SPR.
pic of the fist one.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...R/DSCN2415.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...R/DSCN2427.jpg
I ordered a Spikes billet lower(honestly because I thought it looked cool, and Spikes had a good reputation).Customer service issues with Spikes aside, the lower had a few issues. #1 the bolt catch retaining pin(which is actually a hex head bolt) did not hold the ping pong paddle securely. this meant that when I attached a B.A.D. lever it wobbled and the lever would scrape against the front of my nice new trigger guard when used. (I would like to note here that I order the billet upper and lower as a set and the Spikes website advertises that it is B.A.D. lever compatible) In order to fix this I had to cut down the bolt that was holding the ping pong paddle in so that the threads of the bolt would actually contact the paddle and hole it in place, but since the threads were being contacted every time the lever or paddle was used I also had to use loctite to keep the retaining bolt from backing out. Problem one solved. #2 the buffer retaining pin is held in by a hex head screw that is hollow.(Imagine the cylinder of the buffer retaining pin coming up through the middle of the hex head portion of of the screw). The problem with this is the the retaining pin gets caught in the angles of the hex. meaning that if you push the retaining pin in too far while taking out the buffer/spring it will stick and you will have to use tools to pull it back out. I have come up with no solution to this and frankly I'm too tired of spikes to ask them about it and I think it is inherently a bad design. But other than those 2 things its a great lower.
Considering that there are 800 bajillion lowers from a host of manufacturers out there, those 2 issues, to me, sound like deal breakers. Simply because there are lowers out there w/o those issues.
Having to modify and cut up parts to make something function, while good ingenuity on your part, says that the lower is not good IMO
One thing you have to remember about forged vs. billet is that billets are often times thicker in many areas with beefed up geometry. So even though a forged lower is inherently stronger for two comparable lowers, the billets are often times built up and redesigned enough to be even stronger.
As far as 60xx vs 7xxx series go, 60xx series will have a little better corrosion resistance as well as having a little better toughness than 7xxx series. The 7xxx series will offer a little better over all strength but is more likely to snap or break whereas the 60xx series will be more inclined to bend or deform. Also the 7xxx series is unweldable if you ever felt the need to repair it (probably be cheaper tho replace it anyways).
The biggest thing about billets is that it gives you options. To forge something requires dies and anvils that can cost anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of dollars and hammer machines that are hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars as well. With a billet you take a solid chunk of metal, throw it in a machining center, program it to whatever you want and let it crank them out. You can change anything you want at any time. For AR rifles neither one will be a problem in any way if you buy from a reputable source. For better fit, ambi controls, different looks or any other non standard options you need/want billet is the way to go unless you have the money and clientele (think KAC or Vltor) to forge such a product.
I personally like billet but its because of looks and additional controls. I like to have my shit the way I want it so I'll spend extra money on things to make it nice. That said I'm perfectly happy and capable with a plain jane stock iron sighted quality AR as well for 90% of anything i might shoot. In the end a good shooter masters shooting and the differences between tools doesn't mean shit. It's just nice to have. My money so I'll have it the way I like it. Tool or not, you can still have nice shit once in awhile with out feeling like a fan boy/ mall ninja/ tool/ barfcommer.
I just got the Mega GTR-3H-AMBI and it is beautiful. This is my first build but I have a feeling that all my future builds will use Mega receivers.
Though not necessary at all, I think going billet vs forged is worth the extra scratch. The finish and fit is flawless. The upper and lower fit together as if they were a single piece of aluminum.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=79508