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Originally Posted by rob_s
…..I'm enjoying the discussion either way. It's interesting, however surprising, to see how many people still want to have the document available.…..Interestingly, in an article last year in a print magazine I talked about "your AR ain't milspec" and listed some of the more common reasons this was true. In the online comments section of the publisher's website, someone asked for a way to know which manufacturers meet which criteria. Guy was asking for the Chart and he didn't even know it.
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… There are few people who have the knowledge base to identify everything you have listed in the chart, and be able to contact a manufacturer and ask for clarification. I think people who are heavily involved in the weapon community (and I don't mean gun boards) can forget the world of new people, and the users who are not dialed in to the specifics.
Using the fishing analogy, I think the "chart" is teaching people to fish, not giving them the fish for free. If its not giving people information and teaching them whats important, or at least establishing a baseline, whats the point in it?
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Rob, your original chart was a great help when I began researching the M4 I wanted. It was one of the first Stickies I read when I joined the site. Before that I had no clue as to what a true SPEC weapon was and how the various brands stood up to those spec…. You are not providing the fish to the fisherman. More like the bait to catch the fish.
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I see "The Chart" as a very valuable set of training wheels for a new AR owner…..
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The gun store where I work one night a week now has a copy of the old one and uses it to inform staff and customers. It is used as a tool by folks like me who can't remember all of it and is a good visual tutoring aid for those who would be overwhelmed with all of the info. It is also more useful than me telling them to "Just buy a Colt."…
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The way I see it is, a lot of people don't get a chance to hold many of these brands before they can make a purchase. Where I live most of the stores carry RRA, Bushmaster, and Colt, and if you ask the people at the gun shops they'll tell you the RRA is just as good as the Colt.
If I hadn't found this site I most likely would never had heard of brands like Noveske, Daniel Defense, and Bravo Company, but thanks to this site and the chart I now own a Noveske rather than one of the many RRA's that were being pushed on me…..
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I've referred the Chart to dozens of people but never without telling them (more than once) that the most important part of the whole Chart is the Explanation section. I tell them to ignore the Chart section and to read the Descriptions, follow the LINKS, and then after they have a decent understanding...look at the Chart.
To just show that a Colt is better than a Oly doesn't do a whole lot of good for the individual but showing him "WHY" the Colt is better, that is teaching a person how to fish. So, the Explantions teach how to fish and the Chart's graphics just make the results obvious…..
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I appreciate the opinions of members here. When I first joined this site I could see the difference in demeanor among the senior members.
I have a law enforcement background, and call it instinct or whatever, you can tell when people are serious operators and not just hobbyists….
As for the chart, I do have to respectfully disagree with the characterization of the chart user being "lazy." Not everyone can research a subject to the same depth{as rob_s,}and that's why I appreciate the chart. I am not sure that any amount of in-depth research on my part would have told me who batch tests components and who tests each and every one. When makers {like Bushmaster}would have you believe that they are the equal of makers who have provided complete weapons to the military (when clearly they are not), it's good to have someone who has the industry contacts who can cut through the propaganda put all the correct information in one concise form…..
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….I guess it also stands to reason that for the person who would not be subjecting their AR to long, continued, heavy use, there's a good chance they would never have any problems with a lower tier gun that is lightly used. Not everyone can or will shoot their AR heavily, for a variety of reasons….I've always believed it's wise to buy the highest quality you can swing as it pays you back in performance and in marketability & value on resale. But obviously, many don't subscribe to that view and feel that OK is good enough.
It's great to be able to understand the differences.
Well that got a little out of hand.:blink: And yes, I pretty much cut, pasted and rephrased at will. Sorry…