In that case, I suggest we just let this thread die.
It's turned into a bunch of bickering.
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That time of the month?
What part of the OP did you misunderstand? I specificly stated that I did not want to get into the optic debate. Did you see that??!!!! Not my fault that it took a left turn. I also clarified later that was not looking for opinion as to whether or not I need an optic. My question was answered long ago.
I generally wanted to know what I should be expecting out of a carbine with XM193. That's all.
prodgi,
You did not ask a BS question. What type of accuracy to shoot for (pun intended) with a defensive (AR/M4) carbine using your choice of ammo is a legit question. It has been answered but to reiterate a good carbine is capable of 2-4 MOA, many easily achieve the 2-3 MOA mark. A good shooter with iron sights should be able to push the carbine right at its mechanical accuracy and be able to make precision shots in this same MOA range even with iron sights. In other words a very good shooter shouldn't be much if any of a limiting factor. Of course you would need a solid baseline of the weapons accuracy so that you could reference your own precision against that.
Unfortunately it is all the other crap that followed that effed up this thread, especially those swearing (OK OK I said crap also) and getting their panties all wadded up. Not to mention all of the misinformation in this thread, which at this point would be a huge project in itself to attempt to cover and explain. One of which that I will not attempt to take on since you have your answer already. :)
Surf,
OK, I cuss, sorry, just the way I talk:D
Seriously,
If I've stated something that you disagree with or think is BS, I'd like to get your take on it.
This is a discussion forum, and we discuss things. Some of the best info comes out of threads that take a different twist, or turn.
In the same vein, not addressing BS that sometimes gets slipped into a thread under the radar, lends credibility to it. So, people address it, and then its off to the races.
Bob
You stated that you were aware that an optic will improve accuracy. That is absolutely false. An optic has zero effect on carbine accuracy. Zero.
Then you asked what MOA is acceptable in a defensive carbine.
MOA and defensive carbine is nonsense. The fantasy that you will somehow be engaging "perps" at 100-300 yards is just that. It's fantasy. Unless you want to engage in murder and name it "self-defense". Since typical self defense ranges are 50 yards and in, I'd say anything under 20 MOA is satisfactory for defensive use.
Your original question had a completely bullshit caveat (re: accuracy) and then asked a completely irrelevant question (MOA acceptable for a "defensive" carbine).
And then demanding a "no BS answer" is, frankly, spoiled little brat behavior, which reeks of an entitlement mindset, that, frankly, has been engaged in of late by too many spoiled little bitches who apparently think they are owed free information because they bless the forum with their stupid, insistent and sometimes bullshit questions. IMO, you haven't EARNED a "no-BS answer" to your stupid ****ing question.
That's how your question was complete bullshit. Happy now?
I think it's time administer lethal injection to this thread. Hopefully the OP has received enough information to make a decision.