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Thread: S&W M&P 15 VTAC II

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Not a problem in the slightest.
    Big question: what do you want to do with it?
    What features do you give more weight than others?
    I ask because my wants are not necessarily yours.

    But:
    http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin...status=&title=
    Just something to think about.
    Whew wee that's purty.

    What do I want to do with it? I'm a LEO and want to use it for patrol at work, professional training courses, and for anything else I want.. Something probably rather lightweight, accurate, and quality.

    What features do I give more weight to? Well finish really isn't all that important to me. When I worked in the trades, journeymen were always able to tell the newbies by his tools... If they were bright, shiny, and clean, that mean't he hadn't done much work or he's scared to do work... Hehe... I like a dirty (worn) weapon on the outside, but the inside, the heart of the weapon cleaned, lubricated, and tuned for warfare. I want a quality/accurate barrel, quality bcg, combat quality trigger, and the small details of workmanship (pride) quality matter greatly to me... Such as taper FSB pins, finish under FSB, proper twist on barrel, shot peened and MPI bolt/barrel, proper stress (HP) tests completed, you know the little stuff... Another analogy for you.. In the trades, you could tell a professional by the small things he done, not necessarily because he had to, but because he had pride in his work. i.e... making sure all the screw heads are facing the same direction, making sure all your pipe was bent and aligned properly, you know taking the extra step to make sure it was done with quality... To me, that means a lot. I saw "the list" by Rob_S. Which is awesome by the way.

    So there you have it. Two shot questions answered. You know I probably could have kept going, but you get the idea...

  2. #12
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    https://danieldefense.com/daniel-def...ine-v7-lw.html

    Throws a whole lotta gun into a nice package.

    Really though, I've just switched back to a 6920 with a Centurion FSB cut rail and it gets a whole lotta work done even out to extended range.

    I am a big fan of the 6720 as well.

    If testing and proven fitness are the top of your requirements I recommend Colt, DD, and LMT complete weapons or complete uppers, and I have been happy with the performance of my BCMs as well.
    If you want to step up the precision requirement, Noveske barrels as well as the SS BCM barrels seem to do it without overly sacrificing robustness or heavier firing schedules.

    Really though, if you have a 2 MOA combination, you will be able to reach out to the ragged edge of 5.56 effectiveness.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  3. #13
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    I'd much rather new people pick up the VTAC-II over some of the gems they buy instead. I have no doubt I can keep building my own weapons that are nearly identical for less, but it's a pretty decent starting rifle for somebody at a loss for decent components who refuses to see a 6920/6720 as a viable option.
    عندما تصبح الأسلحة محظورة, قد يملكون حظرون عندهم فقط
    کله چی سلاح منع شوی دی، یوازي غلوونکۍ یی به درلود
    Semper Fi
    "Being able to do the basics, on demand, takes practice. " - Sinister

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehLlama View Post
    I'd much rather new people pick up the VTAC-II over some of the gems they buy instead. I have no doubt I can keep building my own weapons that are nearly identical for less, but it's a pretty decent starting rifle for somebody at a loss for decent components who refuses to see a 6920/6720 as a viable option.
    Llama,

    Thanks for chiming in! I very much agree with your statement.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wa22ioR View Post
    What do I want to do with it? I'm a LEO and want to use it for patrol at work, professional training courses, and for anything else I want...
    Since your LEO you can probably knock about $600 off that MSRP, and get one around $13xx from an LEO dealer. Now at about $1400 how does it compare to the competition? Probably pretty damn well.

    Having said that I'm probably buying a BCM middy, because I want a specific rail at a specific length. It'll most likely cost me more than the VTac 2 to have the trigger, BUIS, and extra bonuses in the long run.

  6. #16
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    Isn't this basically the same thing as a S&W Sport just with added accessories and the trigger? No S&W AR is worth buying over the real top shelf brands such as BCM and Colt, especially when they are priced similar. You'd likely pay more for the S&W in most cases just because they are another brand that prey on people who have no firearms knowledge.

    IMO, S&W has upped their game but I'd still categorize them with someone like Spikes Tactical. There is just no logic behind purchasing a S&W that's not even true mil-spec for the same or more than say, a Noveske.

    Why are we even having this discussion? S&W isn't part of the cool club!

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    Isn't this basically the same thing as a S&W Sport just with added accessories and the trigger? No S&W AR is worth buying over the real top shelf brands such as BCM and Colt, especially when they are priced similar. You'd likely pay more for the S&W in most cases just because they are another brand that prey on people who have no firearms knowledge.

    IMO, S&W has upped their game but I'd still categorize them with someone like Spikes Tactical. There is just no logic behind purchasing a S&W that's not even true mil-spec for the same or more than say, a Noveske.

    Why are we even having this discussion? S&W isn't part of the cool club!
    DJMorris,

    Thanks for stopping by. True, but reality is "most" people do not make informed decisions when buying weapon systems and go with what they know. They know S&W is an American company with a long, established, lineage in the handguns and revolvers industry. I believe the same people believe that truth carries over with their rifle. To be fair, they will probably not see the benefits others, "the cool club", would have. Their arguments will be, I've never had a problem, it shoots accurate, does what I want it to, and it has a lifetime warranty.

    However, I can say I at least like the way they're headed... Seems like they're starting to utilize the mil-spec fans components and procedures. Hell, they may be good to go as far as we know. Some may be surprised if S&W released information about the tests and inspections their AR systems go through. S&W shares very little with those, us, that seem to care. I however, will stick with those I know, especially if they're in the same price point and of said quality.

  8. #18
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    Wa22ioR-

    I might be misreading your intent here.
    Are you considering purchasing this carbine or is this just a conversation about it?

    No problem either way.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wa22ioR View Post
    DJMorris,

    Thanks for stopping by. True, but reality is "most" people do not make informed decisions when buying weapon systems and go with what they know. They know S&W is an American company with a long, established, lineage in the handguns and revolvers industry. I believe the same people believe that truth carries over with their rifle. To be fair, they will probably not see the benefits others, "the cool club", would have. Their arguments will be, I've never had a problem, it shoots accurate, does what I want it to, and it has a lifetime warranty.

    However, I can say I at least like the way they're headed... Seems like they're starting to utilize the mil-spec fans components and procedures. Hell, they may be good to go as far as we know. Some may be surprised if S&W released information about the tests and inspections their AR systems go through. S&W shares very little with those, us, that seem to care. I however, will stick with those I know, especially if they're in the same price point and of said quality.

    I'm glad you can have a real discussion about the rifles without making claims like "My S&W xxx will outshoot your Colt any day because I made a bad investment that I need to feel good about!!!". (I see this all too often)

    Seriously though is there a reason that S&W uses the 1/8 over 1/7 twist ratio? I'm doubting that they know something HK, BCM, Colt, LMT, etc doesn't know.

    I think my main concern in purchasing anything other than the S&W Sport (it's at least priced right) is that their QC may not be up to par. I know there is alot of M&P fans around these parts but I have seen way too many issues first hand with all of S&W semiauto handguns including the M&P. Typically if a company is pumping out low end products (the newer SD line and Sigma's come to mind), their "high end" products are not going to be drastically better in the real world, at least in my experiences.

    If you put revolvers aside, Smith & Wesson has never really made that great of a handgun at all up until the M&P, which has still had more problems than a math book... people have just given 'em a pass it seems.

    Let's be realistic: Smith & Wesson has made their name from LEO using the Model 10 and "Bubba" who thinks Ruger and S&W are the best firearm manufacturers because it says "Made in the USA" (should be a red flag in the handgun world)

    I don't mean to go too far off topic with handguns, etc but my overall feelings are that S&W makes some high quality civilian level firearms but for the price of their supposed higher end duty guns you can usually buy one from a strictly top shelf manufacturer who have very strict QC guidelines to follow.

    (despite this I have been considering picking up an M&P as it seems they have worked out some of the growing pains and for $450'ish it's priced right)
    Last edited by djmorris; 03-02-12 at 11:36.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Wa22ioR-

    I might be misreading your intent here.
    Are you considering purchasing this carbine or is this just a conversation about it?

    No problem either way.
    Failure2Stop

    Yea no problem, the answer is both. I think like all of the specs and upgrades the weapon system has along with the S&W known CS. However, I just can't get past the idea they may be hiding the whole "little things" that are important to me and speak on the quality and craftsmanship of their work... I care about properly MPI and HP tested barrels. I care about MPI and SHot Peened bolts. I care about using tapered pins in the FSB with finish under the FSB or gas block. I care about properly staked end plates and carrier gas keys. It's the little things I care about that S&W won't talk about and considers it "proprietary." To be honest, if I could get some facts from them or from someone that has the new VTAC II that could post pictures of the items I care about, I would probably buy one because it has all the stuff I already want in a package at a reasonable price point of just less that $1600. S&W has upped their game machining their own 7075 T6 receviers, and using 4150 CMV 5R rifling barrels with 1:8 twist.

    Being a reputable company, I don't see them them cutting corners and hiding it under the "proprietary" label, but I just don't take a lot of chances, especially with a weapon system that I will come to depend on and trust with my life.

    Thanks for your question, hope this clarifies it a little.

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