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I am impressed with the changes to the vtac rifle & it seems like a good optic ready carbine with many of the upgrades already in place. I was a bit shocked at the MSRP though. Seems like $2G is the new pricepoint for "premium" rifles these days.
DJMorris,
Yea thanks for the compliment. I am rather new here, other than lurking, but I just like to have honest discussion to help people make informative decisions about purchasing, or building, a weapon system that their life, or their comrades' life, may depend on.
I believe barrels designed to be "combat effective", in a sense meaning adaptability to broad range of ammunition and able to be place accurate fires, like BCM Recce barrels, and others tend to utilize the 1:8 twist. 1:8 twist is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier grain bullets, but all also is slower, not to over-stabilize the lighter grain bullets, causing them to yaw, and possibly keyhole. Generally speaking, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the slower the twist rate, the greater the durability and barrel life. I think you don't see more 1:8 twist rates because they're simply not common or popular, it's almost like a wildcat cartridge in a way... Nice, but not necessarily needed. Most, typically your lower grade, or cheaper, barrels tend to utilize the 1:9 twist for people that want to press the lighter grain, shoter, bullets. Typically used for plinking and such because they're cheaper... Some high end 1:7 "mil spec" barrels tend to "over stabilize" lighter grain bullets and cause degrading accuracy or even key-holing. I had a nice LMT Barrel a while back that MUCH preferred the heavier grain bullets. My groups would open, noticeably, when pressing lighter grain ammunition. It was still "minute of man" accurate to about 250-300 yards or so, before accuracy was heavily degraded or I was noticing keyholes in my targets.
About the handguns, not to digress, yea I had heard their quality a few years back was questionable, but from what I have been hearing, their M&P series is rock-solid now. Starting to break a market in the LEO world that has been dominated, and still is, by Glock. However, I wouldn't hesitate to pick-up a nice M&P Pistol, with an APEX kit installed, and drive it. Just seems like overall, S&W is, maybe trying, to improve their standards and quality.
Hope I didn't speak out my arse too much and help answer your questions. If I did so, please correct me. I don't mind constructive reinforcement. It's how we learn. Thanks again.
Hope this helps some...
MTDawg,
Yea, but it isn't overly awful if you think and add up all of the upgrades you would do to make a rifle like that... The handguards are roughly $180, the Geissele trigger is $240, Troy BUIS is $120, VLTOR IMOD is $100?, VTAC accessories and sling another $100? So not overly bad when they, the rifle, can be had for $1600 or so..
I understand that 1/8 is commonly used in SS precision barrels, etc but does it really offer any advantages over a 1/7 twist ratio for a duty/battle rifle or is S&W just trying to find a sweet middle ground to please both sides? If 1/8 were truly the better ratio for a standard duty rifle then I'd imagine top shelf AR companies would have already picked up on it for their standard.
p.s. I'm not trying to say either way - I'm just here to learn and discuss.![]()
Last edited by djmorris; 03-02-12 at 12:22.
DJMorris,
Yea np, I believe it probably has something to do with the popularity of the others and probably cost. Parts, equipment, and the tooling needed for the 1:8 twist i would imagine is costly and if there isn't a big market for it currently, could equal bad returns for the company.. I think as it become more known and popular, we will see more companies utilizing it.. There are already a couple that do like PWS and few others...
Also,
It does offer some advantage as an all around combat twist rate. As i stated earlier, it's the middle ground that is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets and slow enough to not over stabilize the lighter ones... In "combat purposes" it would mean, you could pick-up and any random ammunition found, collected, or looted and it would effectively fire and hit minute of man regardless of the weight.
I was under the impression that this was basically the advantage of a 1/7 twist ratio.. I'd imagine manufacturers would have considered the 1/8 twist before jumping to 1/7, especially if it's 'better'. So, with that being said, you're implying that S&W is ahead of Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, and KAC in terms of barrel technology? 1/7 is the new 1/9?![]()
Lol! Now lets not get that started. Nope that is not what I am saying. I believe 1:7 is the mil spec. Just like anything else, the mil spec can be improved upon. I just believe it's not commonly known yet, or as popular, as 1:7 twist. I believe 1:8 generally is has little more durability too... Kinda why you see it used a lot in stainless steel barrel that are little less durable than chrome lined. So in hopes it kind of offsets that issue.
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