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Thread: S&W M&P 15 VTAC II

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    Seriously though is there a reason that S&W uses the 1/8 over 1/7 twist ratio? I'm doubting that they know something HK, BCM, Colt, LMT, etc doesn't know.
    1/8 is a pretty popular twist rate with precision barrels, including BCM.
    It stabilizes anything that can fit in the magazine more efficiently than 1/7 apparently.
    Jack Leuba
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    Knight's Armament Company
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  2. #22
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    I am impressed with the changes to the vtac rifle & it seems like a good optic ready carbine with many of the upgrades already in place. I was a bit shocked at the MSRP though. Seems like $2G is the new pricepoint for "premium" rifles these days.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    I'm glad you can have a real discussion about the rifles without making claims like "My S&W xxx will outshoot your Colt any day because I made a bad investment that I need to feel good about!!!". (I see this all too often)

    Seriously though is there a reason that S&W uses the 1/8 over 1/7 twist ratio? I'm doubting that they know something HK, BCM, Colt, LMT, etc doesn't know.

    I think my main concern in purchasing anything other than the S&W Sport (it's at least priced right) is that their QC may not be up to par. I know there is alot of M&P fans around these parts but I have seen way too many issues first hand with all of S&W semiauto handguns including the M&P. Typically if a company is pumping out low end products (the newer SD line and Sigma's come to mind), their "high end" products are not going to be drastically better in the real world, at least in my experiences.

    If you put revolvers aside, Smith & Wesson has never really made that great of a handgun at all up until the M&P, which has still had more problems than a math book... people have just given 'em a pass it seems.

    Let's be realistic: Smith & Wesson has made their name from LEO using the Model 10 and "Bubba" who thinks Ruger and S&W are the best firearm manufacturers because it says "Made in the USA" (should be a red flag in the handgun world)

    I don't mean to go too far off topic with handguns, etc but my overall feelings are that S&W makes some high quality civilian level firearms but for the price of their supposed higher end duty guns you can usually buy one from a strictly top shelf manufacturer who have very strict QC guidelines to follow.

    (despite this I have been considering picking up an M&P as it seems they have worked out some of the growing pains and for $450'ish it's priced right)
    DJMorris,

    Yea thanks for the compliment. I am rather new here, other than lurking, but I just like to have honest discussion to help people make informative decisions about purchasing, or building, a weapon system that their life, or their comrades' life, may depend on.

    I believe barrels designed to be "combat effective", in a sense meaning adaptability to broad range of ammunition and able to be place accurate fires, like BCM Recce barrels, and others tend to utilize the 1:8 twist. 1:8 twist is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier grain bullets, but all also is slower, not to over-stabilize the lighter grain bullets, causing them to yaw, and possibly keyhole. Generally speaking, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the slower the twist rate, the greater the durability and barrel life. I think you don't see more 1:8 twist rates because they're simply not common or popular, it's almost like a wildcat cartridge in a way... Nice, but not necessarily needed. Most, typically your lower grade, or cheaper, barrels tend to utilize the 1:9 twist for people that want to press the lighter grain, shoter, bullets. Typically used for plinking and such because they're cheaper... Some high end 1:7 "mil spec" barrels tend to "over stabilize" lighter grain bullets and cause degrading accuracy or even key-holing. I had a nice LMT Barrel a while back that MUCH preferred the heavier grain bullets. My groups would open, noticeably, when pressing lighter grain ammunition. It was still "minute of man" accurate to about 250-300 yards or so, before accuracy was heavily degraded or I was noticing keyholes in my targets.

    About the handguns, not to digress, yea I had heard their quality a few years back was questionable, but from what I have been hearing, their M&P series is rock-solid now. Starting to break a market in the LEO world that has been dominated, and still is, by Glock. However, I wouldn't hesitate to pick-up a nice M&P Pistol, with an APEX kit installed, and drive it. Just seems like overall, S&W is, maybe trying, to improve their standards and quality.

    Hope I didn't speak out my arse too much and help answer your questions. If I did so, please correct me. I don't mind constructive reinforcement. It's how we learn. Thanks again.

    Hope this helps some...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtdawg169 View Post
    I am impressed with the changes to the vtac rifle & it seems like a good optic ready carbine with many of the upgrades already in place. I was a bit shocked at the MSRP though. Seems like $2G is the new pricepoint for "premium" rifles these days.
    MTDawg,

    Yea, but it isn't overly awful if you think and add up all of the upgrades you would do to make a rifle like that... The handguards are roughly $180, the Geissele trigger is $240, Troy BUIS is $120, VLTOR IMOD is $100?, VTAC accessories and sling another $100? So not overly bad when they, the rifle, can be had for $1600 or so..

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    1/8 is a pretty popular twist rate with precision barrels, including BCM.
    It stabilizes anything that can fit in the magazine more efficiently than 1/7 apparently.
    Beat me to it.

  6. #26
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    I understand that 1/8 is commonly used in SS precision barrels, etc but does it really offer any advantages over a 1/7 twist ratio for a duty/battle rifle or is S&W just trying to find a sweet middle ground to please both sides? If 1/8 were truly the better ratio for a standard duty rifle then I'd imagine top shelf AR companies would have already picked up on it for their standard.

    p.s. I'm not trying to say either way - I'm just here to learn and discuss.
    Last edited by djmorris; 03-02-12 at 12:22.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    I understand that 1/8 is commonly used in SS precision barrels, etc but does it really offer any advantages over a 1/7 twist ratio for a duty/battle rifle or is S&W just trying to find a sweet middle ground to please both sides? If 1/8 were truly the better ratio for a standard duty rifle then I'd imagine top shelf AR companies would have already picked up on it for their standard.

    p.s. I'm not trying to say either way - I'm just here to learn and discuss.
    DJMorris,

    Yea np, I believe it probably has something to do with the popularity of the others and probably cost. Parts, equipment, and the tooling needed for the 1:8 twist i would imagine is costly and if there isn't a big market for it currently, could equal bad returns for the company.. I think as it become more known and popular, we will see more companies utilizing it.. There are already a couple that do like PWS and few others...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    I understand that 1/8 is commonly used in SS precision barrels, etc but does it really offer any advantages over a 1/7 twist ratio for a duty/battle rifle or is S&W just trying to find a sweet middle ground to please both sides? If 1/8 were truly the better ratio for a standard duty rifle then I'd imagine top shelf AR companies would have already picked up on it for their standard.

    p.s. I'm not trying to say either way - I'm just here to learn and discuss.
    Also,

    It does offer some advantage as an all around combat twist rate. As i stated earlier, it's the middle ground that is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets and slow enough to not over stabilize the lighter ones... In "combat purposes" it would mean, you could pick-up and any random ammunition found, collected, or looted and it would effectively fire and hit minute of man regardless of the weight.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wa22ioR View Post
    Also,

    It does offer some advantage as an all around combat twist rate. As i stated earlier, it's the middle ground that is still easily fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets and slow enough to not over stabilize the lighter ones... In "combat purposes" it would mean, you could pick-up and any random ammunition found, collected, or looted and it would effectively fire and hit minute of man regardless of the weight.
    I was under the impression that this was basically the advantage of a 1/7 twist ratio.. I'd imagine manufacturers would have considered the 1/8 twist before jumping to 1/7, especially if it's 'better'. So, with that being said, you're implying that S&W is ahead of Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, and KAC in terms of barrel technology? 1/7 is the new 1/9?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    I was under the impression that this was basically the advantage of a 1/7 twist ratio.. I'd imagine manufacturers would have considered the 1/8 twist before jumping to 1/7, especially if it's 'better'. So, with that being said, you're implying that S&W is ahead of Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, and KAC in terms of barrel technology? 1/7 is the new 1/9?
    Lol! Now lets not get that started. Nope that is not what I am saying. I believe 1:7 is the mil spec. Just like anything else, the mil spec can be improved upon. I just believe it's not commonly known yet, or as popular, as 1:7 twist. I believe 1:8 generally is has little more durability too... Kinda why you see it used a lot in stainless steel barrel that are little less durable than chrome lined. So in hopes it kind of offsets that issue.

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