M855A1 article

[BufordTJustice]

I dont really now why are everyone here almost obsessed about windshield glass... Soldiers rarely have to shot someone through automobile windshields as no one in their right state of mind whould count on glass to protect them from bullets... It is more about crazy muslim savages driving suicide bomb cars and thats all. I dont see another use. US troops wont always be fighting only savages...
Husband of my cousin is serving in the army - 16 years as an infantryman. Currently Master Sergent in 1 Infantry division. He can count on his fingers the times he or his soldiers had to shoot someone in a car. But he woudnt have enough hair on his head to count all the times he wish he had a better cover penetrating ammo for his individual weapons.
COVER not barriers. Barriers are not cover. You stay behind cover because you hope it will stop bullets. You cannot hope that the so called barriers (laminated glass) will stop bullets. They are called concealment.
My cousin husbands unit made numerous requests through the supply chain to order m995/m993 ap ammo. To absolutely no avail.Its not for infantry. JSOC units only. Whats leftover can be issued to the lucky guys. Usually regular SF. Infantry gets none.
Of course the best situation whould be a combo mk318/m995 each issued in massive quantities. But you know it is NOT going to happen. Never ever. The m995 supply is soo minuscule thats not even funny. Higher command always say them "for penetration use heavy weapons". When they use them and it is overkill and they kill some civilians in the process (25mm sheels have massive overpenetration) quess who is going to get their asses burned? A few bursts of m993 whould have done the job clean and efficient. Explain it to the stubborn generals.
I can bet that even if the army had chosen the mk318 as the standard ball their whould be displeased reports of it having pathetic penetration. And soldiers whould be unhappy as usuall.
Even DocGKR has said that the Special Forces soldiers who use mk318 use m995 for hard targets. Normal infantry whould never have M995 as an option. Never had and never will be as this ammo is purchased in minimum amounts.
Atleast the m855a1 does both hard targets/cover and barries decently

For convoy work or compound security, shooting through windshields is a VITAL capability. Also, if urban battle is seen again, engaging a charging enemy driving a rolling car bomb through his windshield is an entirely likely scenario.

If you can punch through windshield glass, you can perform well through most other types of glass. Either way....we nearly zero improvement in this area. The Mk318 shows a marked improvement through vehicle windshields, entirely overshadowing M855A1's performance in that area.

EDIT: And Mike, without getting combative, here is your argument in sum: "It's less shitty that M855. We should all be happy that the soldiers got an improvement."

I'm for getting the BEST kit into the soldier's hands. Both from an absolute perspective (i'd rather see a caliber change to a 6.8 or 7mm intermediate cartridge), a realistic perspective (a caliber change likely won't happen without a platform change), and a real world perspective (getting better ammo is an improvement that could be done right now). The Mk318 was a modification fo an existing design that Federal had. Development costs (and time) were minimal. The Army has managed to spend ~$30 million dollars in developing a 'lead free' round that STILL does not match the performance of the already-exitisting Mk318. That's not good enough for the ones risking their asses overseas. Just. Not. Good. Enough.

An RFP should have been put-out in an open bid. It wasn't. Say goodbye to 5 years and ~$30 million in development costs (that we currently are aware of). And here we have a round that is simply passable in terminal performance (except through auto glass) at a great increase in chamber pressure. That's not good enough.

The 62gr Barnes TSX bullet outperforms M855 in every way...and its development costs have already been paid for. It's one of several rounds that would have served better than the new round.

[C-grunt]

I dont really now why are everyone here almost obsessed about windshield glass... Soldiers rarely have to shot someone through automobile windshields as no one in their right state of mind whould count on glass to protect them from bullets... It is more about crazy muslim savages driving suicide bomb cars and thats all. I dont see another use. US troops wont always be fighting only savages...
Husband of my cousin is serving in the army - 16 years as an infantryman. Currently Master Sergent in 1 Infantry division. He can count on his fingers the times he or his soldiers had to shoot someone in a car. But he woudnt have enough hair on his head to count all the times he wish he had a better cover penetrating ammo for his individual weapons.
COVER not barriers. Barriers are not cover. You stay behind cover because you hope it will stop bullets. You cannot hope that the so called barriers (laminated glass) will stop bullets. They are called concealment.
My cousin husbands unit made numerous requests through the supply chain to order m995/m993 ap ammo. To absolutely no avail.Its not for infantry. JSOC units only. Whats leftover can be issued to the lucky guys. Usually regular SF. Infantry gets none.
Of course the best situation whould be a combo mk318/m995 each issued in massive quantities. But you know it is NOT going to happen. Never ever. The m995 supply is soo minuscule thats not even funny. Higher command always say them "for penetration use heavy weapons". When they use them and it is overkill and they kill some civilians in the process (25mm sheels have massive overpenetration) quess who is going to get their asses burned? A few bursts of m993 whould have done the job clean and efficient. Explain it to the stubborn generals.
I can bet that even if the army had chosen the mk318 as the standard ball their whould be displeased reports of it having pathetic penetration. And soldiers whould be unhappy as usuall.
Even DocGKR has said that the Special Forces soldiers who use mk318 use m995 for hard targets. Normal infantry whould never have M995 as an option. Never had and never will be as this ammo is purchased in minimum amounts.
Atleast the m855a1 does both hard targets/cover and barries decently

I was in Iraq for the invasion, before the carbombs and IEDs were the norm. During the invasion it was common to engage Iraqi military units in vehicles including through the windshield. The most peeve lent military vehicle we encountered was the Toyota and Nissan pickup with a mounted machinegun. So in my opinion performance through a windshield is vitally important.

On another note during my 05 deployment we had a SUV attempt to run through our front gate full of armed insurgents. The gate guard engaged with his rifle and killed all the occupants. All of his shots went through the windshield.

[sinlessorrow]

I was in Iraq for the invasion, before the carbombs and IEDs were the norm. During the invasion it was common to engage Iraqi military units in vehicles including through the windshield. The most peeve lent military vehicle we encountered was the Toyota and Nissan pickup with a mounted machinegun. So in my opinion performance through a windshield is vitally important.

On another note during my 05 deployment we had a SUV attempt to run through our front gate full of armed insurgents. The gate guard engaged with his rifle and killed all the occupants. All of his shots went through the windshield.

I would think shot placement through windshields would be jus as important as not.

A deformed bullet through a windshield will still kill someone if the shot is good.

[tpd223]

I would think shot placement through windshields would be jus as important as not.

A deformed bullet through a windshield will still kill someone if the shot is good.

It is.

and maybe, maybe not. That the bullets fragments and fails to penetrate enough to disable your bad guy can be a real problem.

[R0N]

Having clean up numerous cars in Iraq following the people inside being killed by 5.56. I can honestly say, it may not be perfect but it still tended to be pretty lethal.

[DocGKR]

Here I try to sneak away to a soccer tournament with my youngest daughter over the weekend and miss all this excitement.

Glenn Dean has previously written a somewhat pro-Army cheerleader version of M855A1 development: http://www.smashwords.com/books/down...ance-round.pdf; he now writes about military ammo costs at: http://www.soldiergeek.com/milblog/2...ammo-cost.html. He states:

”Well, can we at least fact-check the cost assertion? It turns out that we can, and quite easily, if you know where to look. .”

We can…but it seems as if Dean did not know where to look, as the ammo price he reports for Mk318 is clearly NOT accurate. If he had bothered to pick up the telephone and call Crane or SYSCOM, he would have discovered his quoted figure is nearly double the actual Mk318 contract price. Heck, Dean is so far off base that even 7.62 x 51 mm Mk319 Mod0 SOST actually costs less than Dean’s erroneously reported price for 5.56 mm SOST.

In addition, one must ask for which version of M855A1 EPR is the price reported by Dean applicable to--early lots of ammo, later production BAM, or an estimated cost for full-rate SCAMP production? I would fully expect M855A1 produced on the SCAMP line to be at about $0.45/cartridge—in line with the M855 “greentip” SCAMP full-rate production price of $0.39/cartridge. Yet most of the EPR ammo tested and procured so far has been loaded on the old BAM machines, not the SCAMP line. Some folks at ATK have previously mentioned costs nearly double for BAM produced EPR ammo compared to that made on the SCAMP line. In addition, the reported internal, external, and terminal ballistic data for M855A1 has been almost all on BAM produced ammo—what differences will there be for SCAMP loaded ammo?

”That would suggest that the internet blowhards are not only wrong; they actually have their relative magnitudes reversed: Mk318 is almost twice the cost of M855A1.”

Hmm…since he did not check his facts and reported grossly inaccurate misinformation, does this mean Dean is an internet blowhard?

I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that Dean has once again failed to make accurate statements about ammunition issues, given his prior error prone article about JSWB-IPT findings: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32989, let alone his pathetic attempt (http://www.soldiergeek.com/milblog/2...55a1-yawn.html) to vilify Jeremy Stafford’s superb discussion (http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/03/0...s-and-marines/) of problems associated with M855A1.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

I dont really now why are everyone here almost obsessed about windshield glass... Soldiers rarely have to shot someone through automobile windshields as no one in their right state of mind whould count on glass to protect them from bullets... It is more about crazy muslim savages driving suicide bomb cars and thats all. I dont see another use. US troops wont always be fighting only savages...
Husband of my cousin is serving in the army - 16 years as an infantryman. Currently Master Sergent in 1 Infantry division. He can count on his fingers the times he or his soldiers had to shoot someone in a car. But he woudnt have enough hair on his head to count all the times he wish he had a better cover penetrating ammo for his individual weapons.
COVER not barriers. Barriers are not cover. You stay behind cover because you hope it will stop bullets. You cannot hope that the so called barriers (laminated glass) will stop bullets. They are called concealment.
My cousin husbands unit made numerous requests through the supply chain to order m995/m993 ap ammo. To absolutely no avail.Its not for infantry. JSOC units only. Whats leftover can be issued to the lucky guys. Usually regular SF. Infantry gets none.
Of course the best situation whould be a combo mk318/m995 each issued in massive quantities. But you know it is NOT going to happen. Never ever. The m995 supply is soo minuscule thats not even funny. Higher command always say them "for penetration use heavy weapons". When they use them and it is overkill and they kill some civilians in the process (25mm sheels have massive overpenetration) quess who is going to get their asses burned? A few bursts of m993 whould have done the job clean and efficient. Explain it to the stubborn generals.
I can bet that even if the army had chosen the mk318 as the standard ball their whould be displeased reports of it having pathetic penetration. And soldiers whould be unhappy as usuall.
Even DocGKR has said that the Special Forces soldiers who use mk318 use m995 for hard targets. Normal infantry whould never have M995 as an option. Never had and never will be as this ammo is purchased in minimum amounts.
Atleast the m855a1 does both hard targets/cover and barries decently

Others have stated the need for a good barrier blind ammo to you so I wont go any further with that, but I was "normal" Infantry and we got plenty of M995/M993 I was a 240 gunner for much of my tour in Iraq in '06-'08 and in fact for a long period of time all I got issued was linked M993, when I was in the turret of a HMMWV I carried a few mags for the M4 with M995 but would have welcomed something like the Mk318 with its better terminal performance after an obstructed shot more. Again in Afghanistan, I had a decent amount of M995 and our SAW gunners had ONLY linked M993 and my brother (USMC/0331 Marja, Afghan) Shot LOTS of AP

[kaltesherz]

Others have stated the need for a good barrier blind ammo to you so I wont go any further with that, but I was "normal" Infantry and we got plenty of M995/M993 I was a 240 gunner for much of my tour in Iraq in '06-'08 and in fact for a long period of time all I got issued was linked M993, when I was in the turret of a HMMWV I carried a few mags for the M4 with M995 but would have welcomed something like the Mk318 with its better terminal performance after an obstructed shot more. Again in Afghanistan, I had a decent amount of M995 and our SAW gunners had ONLY linked M993 and my brother (USMC/0331 Marja, Afghan) Shot LOTS of AP

Must've been nice, I was also Infantry and the only time I ever saw M993 was when we did a mission with ANA Commandos, it's all their 240 gunners used. Never even saw M995 the entire year I was overseas- had a hard enough time getting linked 5.56 for my SAW...

[Sixgun_Symphony]

Must've been nice, I was also Infantry and the only time I ever saw M993 was when we did a mission with ANA Commandos, it's all their 240 gunners used. Never even saw M995 the entire year I was overseas- had a hard enough time getting linked 5.56 for my SAW...

I still would have taken the Mk318 over the M995 personally... But it is funny in Iraq on my 1st deployment we had all the 762AP we could want..in fact Ball became hard to come by in the battalion and very little 556AP I and a few others in the PLT had enough for a few magazines...this my 3rd deployment to Afghan it was flipped, I had maybe 200rnds of 762AP and the ONLY ammo our SAW gunners got was linked 556AP