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Thread: A5 Annecdotes backed up with something other than "Feel"?

  1. #11
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    I base my opinions on the system after actual usage not some scientific data that says xxx should equal y2.

    The others who have used the A5 are probably doing the same thing.

    When I take an A5 lower and run it with 4 different uppers of various length and it runs using the same ammo and mags I call that a success.

    No more changing springs, buffers, etc...When I did my brief full auto test again I could FEEL the difference. That is more important to me. YMMV

    Quote Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
    I looked over that thread, then started this one. Do you have any metrics or interesting annecdotes that are objective and on topic?



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  2. #12
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    There was a report done by Crane on the A5 system called "Detailed Test Report For Reliability Comparison of M16A4, M16A4 with H6 Buffer, and M16A4 with Vltor Stock Assembly"

    NSW Crane found it to be more reliable, documented the results, and published a report. If you're looking for scientific data, google the report. The PDF is probably still floating around somewhere.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    USMC did a test comparing A2, A5, and carbine recoil systems.
    The data indicated that the A5 was the most reliable of all tested systems. As the data has not been publicly released it is hard to determine the exact testing parameters or data relevance.

    http://www.vltor.com/emod-a5.html
    Quote Originally Posted by interfan View Post
    There was a report done by Crane on the A5 system called "Detailed Test Report For Reliability Comparison of M16A4, M16A4 with H6 Buffer, and M16A4 with Vltor Stock Assembly"

    NSW Crane found it to be more reliable, documented the results, and published a report. If you're looking for scientific data, google the report. The PDF is probably still floating around somewhere.
    When I google that title all I get is this thread, and if it's the same report F2S seems to indicate that it's not public anyway.

    and, perhaps pointing out the obvious, but what works on a 20" M16 for the USMC may or may not be relevant to what works on a 10.5-16" commercial AR in the hands of an average Joe.

    I'm NOT dismissing the A5, although those who have used their mk1mod0 shoulder to test it like to think I am, but like the OP and unlike some of those "testers" I'd like to have actual data. While I don't think just the eggheads should be designing things (that's how you wind up with 300 wtf) and should have shooter input, you can't rely on what someone tells you they "feel" either.
    Last edited by rob_s; 03-15-12 at 06:47.

  4. #14
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    Is it totally necessary to understand everything in life? I am just curious because it seems like lots of people accept things at face value all the time.

    Have you ever tried an A5? The point that was being made in regards to the 20" M16 is that the system works across the board.

    I have used it on 16", 14.5", 11.5", 12.5" and 10.5" uppers and they have all functioned 100 percent.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    When I google that title all I get is this thread, and if it's the same report F2S seems to indicate that it's not public anyway.

    and, perhaps pointing out the obvious, but what works on a 20" M16 for the USMC may or may not be relevant to what works on a 10.5-16" commercial AR in the hands of an average Joe.

    I'm NOT dismissing the A5, although those who have used their mk1mod0 shoulder to test it like to think I am, but like the OP and unlike some of those "testers" I'd like to have actual data. While I don't think just the eggheads should be designing things (that's how you wind up with 300 wtf) and should have shooter input, you can't rely on what someone tells you they "feel" either.



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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Is it totally necessary to understand everything in life? I am just curious because it seems like lots of people accept things at face value all the time.
    So because everyone else is content to simply "accept", we all should dumb ourselves down to that level? Idiocracy here we come!

    I find it odd that we're being expected to simply "accept" and that the request for more data is being shouted down. Is there some kind of concern that the numbers won't match the shoulders? If the shoulder guys are so certain of their results I imagine that no amount of data is going to sway them anyway, or they'll simply snipe the results, so what's the harm in asking for, and producing, that data for those that may find it interesting?

    If you're happy with the A5 and a true believer, why do you care what the rest of us do or want? If I tell you I tried it and didn't notice any improvement to justify the added cost, does that somehow reduce the "facts" of your own experience? Or is it just that asshole rob being an asshole again? Seems to be the standard method of dismissing whatever I say when people don't like it.

    Have you ever tried an A5? The point that was being made in regards to the 20" M16 is that the system works across the board.
    Yes, I have. I know that goes against the whole "anyone who tries one will be instantly converted" sort of "face value" we're all supposed to just "accept". I have 1019 rounds on one, which I understand is not a lot however I bet it's more than 90% of the people in the picture thread combined.

    I have used it on 16", 14.5", 11.5", 12.5" and 10.5" uppers and they have all functioned 100 percent.
    and I assume they were all choking and puking all over right up until then?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
    Rob that would be really great!!! I already take your word higher than most so I'd be all about seeing what you have knocking around.

    I'd also be interested to see a military Mk12 or Mk18 with the A5 kit, I'll start googling for that.

    You seem to readily take one persons word for something and not the other. Why is that when rob and gunz both offer lots of real experience concerning ARs?

    If someone is using this system and it functions 100% for them and the recoil impulse "feels" right in their mind, why should that opinion be discounted just because there is no hard "data" along with it. Especially when it is coming from someone "in the know".

    Why don't you just spend the $100 on a A5 and try it for yourself instead of arguing over something that is subjective in nature?
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  7. #17
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    I've been an advocate of the A5 since it was first released and I put a few hundred rounds through one. It's not just about "FEEL". It's about what one has experienced. I think many are missing the point of the A5, it's not about softer recoil, it's about reliability and consistency.

    I have probably well over 20,000 rounds through rifles with the A5, both suppressed and not as well as cheap steel cased ammo to OTM. Most of those rounds were through an LMT 10.5", KAC SR15, Colt 16" and BCM 14.5" mid length. Other than the 14.5" mid length, I noticed a difference in performance.

    I have seen the difference it makes with certain rifles. I have seen the consistency from upper to upper, with and without a suppressor. This is all I need to know there's an advantage in using the A5.

    The people that understand the difference between a rifle RE and carbine RE will understand the A5's benefits a little easier. I can tell you that I saw a more noticeable difference in consistency on my 10.5" with and without a suppressor and with different ammo than I did on the SR15's. At the same time, I saw some things I didn't like with the standard A5 buffer when using it on my 14.5" mid length. It slowed the carrier a bit too much. Lightening the buffer by one tungsten did the trick, but running a carbine RE and H buffer did it even better… which happens to be the recommended setup by BCM.

    For most, I don't think it'll make much difference. For some though, it might be a benefit, especially if you have multiple uppers, shoot al different types of ammo, run suppressors occasionally but only use one or two different lowers. I know when I travel out of state, I'll take a couple uppers and a suppressor, but occasionally take only one lower. Sure, it'll likely run fine with a carbine RE, but it feels more consistent with the A5.

    Now, I'd like to see some data just to see how it compares to what I've experienced, but I don't need that data to know it works for me on my rifles. If Rob did some testing, I'd really like to see how consistent carrier velocities are with different variables compared to a carbine RE.

    At the same time, I will not discount the opinions and experiences of educated shooters. There are certain people on this forum, and other forums, that when they post, I listen. I don't immediately take everything as fact, but when you get experienced shooters posting the same experiences, then maybe they're on to something.

    EDIT - Rob, my Yahoo has been having problems for a few weeks or so. If you email me, it's the same address, just gmail instead of Yahoo for now until I get it fixed.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; 03-15-12 at 10:26.
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  8. #18
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    A5 and rifle had a lower cyclic rate change with different power ammo vs carbine in some testing I did.

  9. #19
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    Good post jon

    I recently installed the A5 on a lower and have only run it on a 14.5" midlength. It is intended for a 11.5" SBR I have in the works.

    Only have about 100 rds through it including some suppressed. Don't have enough time or rounds on it to offer any kind of opinion. Ran fine.
    What I did notice was a spring "sprong" kinda noise when shooting suppressed. Anyone else experience this? Why would it be doing this?
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    A5 and rifle had a lower cyclic rate change with different power ammo vs carbine in some testing I did.
    Thank you for your input. I take yours a little higher than most knowing you have the tools to test such things.

    Did it lower the cyclic rate enough to reduce or negate the benifits of an adjustable gas system in your test or in your opinion any given scenario? Knowing full well the answer to that could be a conflict of interest for you. If you don't want to answer that, instead, do you see a scenario where the A5 could come stock on Noveske weapons?

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