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Thread: A5 Annecdotes backed up with something other than "Feel"?

  1. #51
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    I think the HK416 cyclic data quoted above is quite good, and while it's not on a DI there's absolutely no reason to think that the results would differ in trend on a DI setup.

    Two ideas for relatively low cost, relatively objective testing:

    1) High-speed video an experienced shooter using the same upper on otherwise identical lowers, one with a carbine setup and one with the A5. Analyze the muzzle rise and visible recoil and determine any difference.

    2) Have an experienced shooter run several standardized drills using the same upper on otherwise identical lowers, one with a carbine setup and one with the A5. Compare the split times when using the two different setups. (This doesn't directly measure mechanical effectiveness, but is an excellent indicator of real-world usefulness.)

    As for me? I tried the A5 system on a lower build, since it cost only about $30 more than the quality carbine parts I would otherwise use. I have video of me shooting it in which the muzzle basically stays flat, using a lightweight upper with a non-compensating device (a phantom). In fact it stays about as flat as when running a comp on a carbine-buffer-equipped lower. Felt recoil is different - not necessarily less, but different. I was skeptical but for a trivial cost increase on a new assembly I think it's worthwhile. Of course I would also like some objective data.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Can you talk on this a bit more?
    Curious as to what didn't work for you.
    Not trying to poke holes, just looking for information.

    I see no problem with backing up physical perception and observation with real data, or vice versa.
    I got an A5 to try out for functional reasons and found that I liked the shootability of the system as well.
    Considering that I didn't have any issues with function before I put it on, I can't really say that it has improved anything, but it doesn't seem to have hurt, though that is hardly a compelling reason for anyone else to buy one.
    I tried it on mt 11.5" BCM with BC 1.0 and H buffer. I chose to run some drills and compare times/splits to make a decision. For me I noticed my dot had slightly mire movement with the A5 system than my standard set up leading to slower times. Since my AR was already reliable I saw no benefits to the increased reliability the A5 offers.

    I may try it again with an upcoming 16-18" build I am working on.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
    My issue with it is that this SHOULD be a complete marketing failure on Vltor's part. They have one sentence saying how Crane found it more reliable on their site but offer zero supporting claims.
    i don't see how that's much different from most other components you build your rifle out of. which manufacturers provide test data for everything they sell, that do with performance? barrels, for example. do you buy your barrels based on the availability of test data supplied by the manufacturer, or mostly based on manufacturer reputation? aimpoint advertised the battery life of the T-1 as over 5 years of continuous use when it came out. was a T-1 prototype tested for over 5 years or is that life an estimate based on calculations?

    these arguments come up all the time. one side says 'i want manufacturer test data'. the other says 'i don't trust manufacturer test data, only independent test data'. another will disagree with the test method used to obtain the data. no matter what info or data is out there, there's always someone arguing against the validity of the data, and how it was obtained and conducted. and, given test data, is it applicable to your use? can you extrapolate it as such? and, we'll always see anomalies where personal experience is opposite that of supplied data.
    i don't discount anecdotal data, but i look at it knowing that it's mostly subjective, across the board in variables (ammo, etc). but if enough people get similar results over time, chances are that something is working as claimed, up to that time.

    i like data myself, but ultimately rely on my own subjective experience, and how something performs for me. actual testing costs money, instrumentation etc that is cost prohibitive for the regular individual like myself. my personal experience with the A5 is a very small statistic, but it's important to me because it's mine, with my rifles. I have a couple of uppers that were finicky with non milspec ammo, and i'd have to use lighter buffers in a carbine tube to get them to run reliably. on an A5-equipped lower, they ran reliably. that's why i've gone to the A5 system, because it's proved the most reliable with all my uppers. that's the only variable that was changed, and it works for me.

    MARCORSYSCOM and USSOCOM have the A5 test data, so it's up to them to release it publicly. so, it's not that there's no data to back up vltor's statements on the A5, it's just that the testing wasn't done by vltor and it's not public.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    1. Allows me to use various uppers on the same lower.
    This is the sole point of the A5 system that interests me. If this can be supported by enough people then the system is, to me, a worthwhile investment; it means I only have to own a couple lowers versus a lower setup for each upper.


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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by militarymoron View Post
    i don't see how that's much different from most other components you build your rifle out of. which manufacturers provide test data for everything they sell, that do with performance? barrels, for example. do you buy your barrels based on the availability of test data supplied by the manufacturer, or mostly based on manufacturer reputation?
    Well, I guess the difference is, I can see that nothing sticks to nickel boron well, I can see test targets from rifles with Noveske barrels, I can touch magpul stocks to see if I like the feel, same with hanguards, scopes and etc. It's when it comes to less apparent feature claims that the mfg should step up. Vltor says "more reliable", but like Rob says, if I'm already running 100%...

    I am most interested in the A5 as it pertains to SBR over-gassing. The issue isn't really over-gassing as far as the tube or port is concerned. More in the shortened dwell time and blowback coming down the barrel. A few people here argue that it's better than using an adjustable regulator which I can not get on board with. However if the A5 is enough of a band-aid to remove the symptoms of SBR suppressed (gassy face), that's probably fine enough with me. Lowering the suppressed cyclic rate significantly is going to be a possible solution, that's what I'd like data on.

    I have a couple of uppers that were finicky with non milspec ammo, and i'd have to use lighter buffers in a carbine tube to get them to run reliably. on an A5-equipped lower, they ran reliably. that's why i've gone to the A5 system, because it's proved the most reliable with all my uppers. that's the only variable that was changed, and it works for me.
    Comments like that go a lot longer for me than "I like how it feels" and "It's just better". It would be great to know more specifics, but as the title says, I am looking for anecdotes here. Real testing would be the shit, but I'm willing to take internet people's word for it if they are specific enough about what is really going on.

    I don't want to buy into hype if it is only justified as being a Vltor product. I just really am certain the general attitude of the A5 here would be radically different if it had a little spider on it instead of a sword thing.
    Last edited by Noodles; 03-15-12 at 17:25.

  6. #56
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    [QUOTE=armatac;1258388]

    Quote Originally Posted by armatac View Post
    If the H3 matched the A5 buffer in its body and internal weight mass, then your spring would have to match the A5 in preload and spring constant. Then you have identical systems-identical.
    Ergo, my question. Is it possible to design a spring to match the operating characteristics of the A5/rifle spring, but in the length of a carbine spring? If so, why didn't Vltor's engineers, or any of the other myriad of engineers who have worked with the carbine design, do just that instead of going the A5 route?

    (the H3 and A5 are close enough in mass to be deemed identical)
    Last edited by M90A1; 03-15-12 at 17:31.

  7. #57
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    A piece of advice. Stay away from the A5 and get an adjustable gas block since you seem to default back to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noodles View Post
    Well, I guess the difference is, I can see that nothing sticks to nickel boron well, I can see test targets from rifles with Noveske barrels, I can touch magpul stocks to see if I like the feel, same with hanguards, scopes and etc.

    It's when it comes to less apparent feature claims that the mfg should step up. Vltor says "more reliable", but like Rob says, if I'm already running 100%...

    I am most interested in the A5 as it pertains to SBR over-gassing. The issue isn't really over-gassing as far as the tube or port is concerned. More in the shortened dwell time and blowback coming down the barrel. A few people here argue that it's better than using an adjustable regulator which I can not get on board with. However if the A5 is enough of a band-aid to remove the symptoms of SBR suppressed (gassy face), that's probably fine enough with me.



    Comments like that go a lot longer for me than "I like how it feels" and "It's just better". It would be great to know more specifics, but as the title says, I am looking for anecdotes here. Real testing would be the shit, but I'm willing to take internet people's word for it if they are specific enough about what is really going on.

    I don't want to buy into hype if it is only justified as being a Vltor product. I just really am certain the general attitude of the A5 here would be radically different if it had a little spider on it instead of a sword thing.



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  8. #58
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    Why are we burning up baud rate over whether or not an A5 has any hard data to prove it's worth and whether or not "feel" is a good enough reason to justify it's existence?

    If there is no hard data and that's not good enough, move along. Nothing here for you to see. If you don't want to take a chance on buying and testing the A5 for yourself, move along, there's nothing here for you to see. Man up or shut up
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    Why are we burning up baud rate over whether or not an A5 has any hard data to prove it's worth and whether or not "feel" is a good enough reason to justify it's existence?

    If there is no hard data and that's not good enough, move along. Nothing here for you to see. If you don't want to take a chance on buying and testing the A5 for yourself, move along, there's nothing here for you to see. Man up or shut up
    Why did you start a topic on Suppressors in July? Why didn't you just go man up and buy one? Why do any sort of research or due diligence at all?

    I love how if the topic displeases someone, the response is "don't talk about that, that's not worth talking about".

  10. #60
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    The question has been answered. Not enough hard data for some, feel is good enough for others. At this point there is only the decision to be made and that is whether to buy the A5 and try it, or not

    Now it's just covering the same ground over and over again. As for the suppressor thing, I chose to shut up and not bother others by demanding they justify their hard data or feelings on the subject
    Last edited by MistWolf; 03-15-12 at 18:13.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

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