Response to why 4 layers of denim

[Kain]

The only way I can see clothing causing premature expansion is if it were soaking wet. Half a dozen soaking wet sweaters could be an inch or more of wet fabric which could result in expansion. I still don't see how it would completely stop the bullet from penetrating though unless the subject was wearing body armor of some type underneath.

It could of been wet, but the suspect was coming out of a liquor store, when the officer stopped him, suspect turned and raised a gun when he did so, officer fired two rounds center mast. Suspect had on top layer heavy leather jacket, then several sweaters(Never got an exact number so it could have been rather high since if memory serves said perp was a vagrant), finally a T shirt. My theory has always been it acted like a bullet catch padding the round while letting it expand and reducing its ability to penetrate. Left nice bruises but did not penetrate at all, when the jacket was pulled open the slugs popped off. So they may have stuck in the jacket, but other then some bruising the perp was okay. If he had been wearing armor underneath I would have expected the bullets to have stopped there, and I think there would have been a greater uproar over a perp wearing body armor during an armed robbery in metro Atlanta.

As far as it being a story that got lost in translation, I live next door to the cop who dropped the hammer, or striker as it may be since department issue is a Glock, I don't see why he would be lying since its not like he hasn't been in the shit before.

While I am thinking of it. Failure could have been caused due to old ammo being repeatedly chambered(Seen round failures due to this personally, not opening as designed and actually tumbling(230gr PMC Starfire if anyone cares), but then I would have only have expected a single failure not two, though if you cycled the top two rounds when unloading reloading then perhaps not out of realm of possibility.

[Alaskapopo]

It could of been wet, but the suspect was coming out of a liquor store, when the officer stopped him, suspect turned and raised a gun when he did so, officer fired two rounds center mast. Suspect had on top layer heavy leather jacket, then several sweaters(Never got an exact number so it could have been rather high since if memory serves said perp was a vagrant), finally a T shirt. My theory has always been it acted like a bullet catch padding the round while letting it expand and reducing its ability to penetrate. Left nice bruises but did not penetrate at all, when the jacket was pulled open the slugs popped off. So they may have stuck in the jacket, but other then some bruising the perp was okay. If he had been wearing armor underneath I would have expected the bullets to have stopped there, and I think there would have been a greater uproar over a perp wearing body armor during an armed robbery in metro Atlanta.

As far as it being a story that got lost in translation, I live next door to the cop who dropped the hammer, or striker as it may be since department issue is a Glock, I don't see why he would be lying since its not like he hasn't been in the shit before.

While I am thinking of it. Failure could have been caused due to old ammo being repeatedly chambered(Seen round failures due to this personally, not opening as designed and actually tumbling(230gr PMC Starfire if anyone cares), but then I would have only have expected a single failure not two, though if you cycled the top two rounds when unloading reloading then perhaps not out of realm of possibility.

I don't think anyone is lying but I have seen a lot of things get lost in translation especially from fellow cops who just did not understand what they were being told. Also if the clothing had stopped the bullet it would not have been a perfect mushroom because there would not have been fluid involved. It would have looked like a bullet shot into a vest or other hard object. The nose would have caved in on itself looking more like a smashed rivot than a mushroom.

Pat

[vicious_cb]

Kind of sounds like that old myth that .30 carbine would not penetrate the heavy winter clothing during the korean war. I doubt there is any amount of clothing a person could reasonably wear that would even slow down a common service caliber.

[Swatdude1]

Kind of sounds like that old myth that .30 carbine would not penetrate the heavy winter clothing during the korean war. I doubt there is any amount of clothing a person could reasonably wear that would even slow down a common service caliber.

I second this statement. Why buy a bullet proof vest when a leather jacket with lots of cotton padding would save officers lives? When a 180 gr HST bullet will penetrate plywood, drywall and steel, I have to believe heavy leather would not stop a it. If the round hit a metal flask inside the jacket or a large pocket knife or other metal object, maybe it wouldn't penetrate but I am still betting on the HST. Maybe the homeless guy was Hancock (Wil Smith).

The other thing that makes me call BS is the fact that clothing usually causes rounds to OVERPENETRATE due to the clothing clogging the hollow point, which causes the round NOT to expand. Heavy clothing rareley ever causes less penetration.

[tpd223]

JHPs tend to penetrate MORE after going through heavy clothing, not less, and this is due to lack of expansion of the bullet.

I will go out on a limb and call this story complete and utter bullshit. I will go so far as to say that either someone is lying or the BS of the story got tuned up a notch over several tellings of the story.

I have seen stories like this take on a life of their own way too many times.
The ".30 carbine doesn't penetrate heavy/frozen clothing" is one such story, the BS ref the Penn. gunfight FBI Powerpoint that flew around the intardnets is another where the .40 "only penetrated 1" in flesh and stopped fully expand" or in one version after not expanding at all.

Even pissant rounds get through some very heavy clothing rather nicely.
An example would be a shooting we had here, home invasion suspect shot several times, one of the over 50 year old .38 special standard velocity RNL bullets from a model 36 had to get through the folds and front zipper of a set of Carhart coveralls, two sets of blue jeans underneath, long Johns, boxers, enough tissue to ricochet off of the pelvis and then travel upwards a foot and a half through the intestines. Next bullet went through a quilted parka, the Carharts, a hoody, sweatshirt, T-shirt, hit the left clavicle and deflected downwards and penetrated all the way into the liver.


Not really scientific, but the point is made here;

Heavy clothing;
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

Heavy frozen clothing;
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36_2.htm