When and why did the 30rd mag come about?

[Ready.Fire.Aim]

Deleted

[patrick sweeney]

OK, I have to ask; A pink magazine?

Don't tell me that was USGI, ca. 1960-something.

[dewatters]

OK, I have to ask; A pink magazine?

Don't tell me that was USGI, ca. 1960-something.

Patrick - Look what is printed on the side of the magazine: BLANK. I suspect that they were going for a red color with the anodizing. If I remember correctly, this variant had a spacer installed for use with a shorter than standard crimped blank cartridge.

[dewatters]

I did a little more digging. The red blank magazine dates to a 1969 program run by Frankford Arsenal to improve M16A1 performance with the M200 Blank. The M200 of that era was 3/8" shorter than the M193 Ball cartridge. As a result, it tended to stub against the front of the standard magazine tube or the barrel extension during feeding. During testing, the red magazine with the spacer completely eliminated feeding malfunctions with the M200 Blank, compared to the 50-80% rate encountered with issue magazines.

M16A1 with dedicated blank magazine.JPG

[dewatters]

I recently had the opportunity to read a copy of the January 1966 report "Barrel Erosion Study of Rifles, 5.56mm, M16 AND XM16E1 - A Joint Army-Air Force Test." While that sounds boring on the surface, someone had the clever idea to include a set of rifles with new experimental parts offered by Colt. Included as early as February 1965 were the prototype continuous-curve 30rd magazines.

Here's a link to the report:

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=AD0483309

[303]

A dear friend of mine served two tours in the RVN with the 101st 71 & 72. He encountered 30 rd mags in '71 and they were issued at that time 3 per man . Of course by hook & crook they acquired more per man as there was always gear in the rear for sale/trade. Myself I went in the army in '85 to 88 and we had 30 rd mags out the wazoo. It was only when I went ARNG after my active gig that I encountered 20 rd mags in gobs...and I mean in gobs !.

I served as a sergeant in D Co 1/502d Inf (AMBL) 101st ABN Div (AMBL) from Oct 71 till the division stood down in Feb 1972 and I never saw a 30 round magazine in use amongst any 101st ABN troops I encountered during that period. It was unit SOP to TURN IN all weapons and MAGAZINES every time we returned to base camp. Every time we went back to the field we were issued DIFFERENT MAGAZINES. These DIFFERENT magazines were guaranteed to be FILTHY inside. I made a practice of cleaning mine before I loaded them. Most guys didn't.

That was my second unit assignment in Vietnam. The first was to C Trp 3/5 Cav, 9th Inf Div., which was under the operational control of the 5th Mech when I went into it in early June but at the end of the month came under the operational control of the 101st ABN (AMBL). As soon as I could after I was issued a M-16, I tested several magazines to see how they fed. Loaded with 20 rounds, none of my small random sample would feed the top round. They didn't even come close... all (100%) were stove piped. I also experimented with both 18 and 19 round magazine loads. Both of those loadings fed fine, so, I always loaded 19.

But, back to the 30 rounders. 3/5 Cav was comprised of 3 armored troops and one air troop... or at least I thought it was at the time. Apparently some genius had re-designated D Troop (the air troop) as D 3/17th Cav, but that wasn't common knowledge, and that's another story... As a part of the "withdrawal" process D Trp lost its Infantry scout component and those guys had amongst their responsibilities, securing downed aircraft of the troop during recovery. To adjust to that loss, certain individuals in the 3 armored troops were designated for immediate reaction to secured downed aircraft if/when said individuals were in base camp. I was one of those "fortunate" souls. I never was actually called upon to secure a downed aircraft, but to be prepared to do so I did have to keep certain items packed and ready to go any time I was in base camp, and I was issued a card authorizing me to draw arms at any time. I also got issued two brand spanking new 30 round magazines. Those went in my lower right fatigue shirt pocket, and stayed there, 24/7. When we took our armor and weapons to DaNang by LST to turn them in, we were reduced to only individual weapons with only one magazine loaded (no crew served weapons mounted or loaded), and before we boarded the LST at Tan My our LT collected those in a sand bag and tossed them off of the dock. We sailed from Tan My to Danang with no ammo. Somehow I forgot about those two 30 rounders in my right front pocket through all of that. Also, later, in the 101st, I forgot about them every time we turned in weapons and magazines. I am a very forgetful person. So far as I know I was the only guy anywhere around who had any 30 round magazines... but who knows what someone else might have "forgot" in their pocket...?

[Ick]

Great read, thanks.

[Combat vet]

I was with CO A, 1/327th Infantry, 101st Airborne Div in Vietnam in 1971. WE were issued I believe 10 20 round magazines and 1 30 round magazine so I guess they were relativily new back then.

kevin

[CoffeedrinkerinNC]

My father was a Marine 64 to 90, he said that he didn't remember 30 rounds becoming common till the mid 70's.

[XM177E2]

Here is what I know for sure. With the advent of the xm177E2 being phased out the Combat Developments Command (CDC) first established a requirement for a 30-round magazine for the M16(A1) in January 1966. 30-round mags were suppose to make their appearance with the XM177E1's and E2's but for some reason they weren't. Note: I remember in Plaster's book on MACVSOG that he and a few 10's (one-zero) had gotten a hold of some from the old Sherwood Military Surplus store in California. I remember them vividly as ordered some things from them in the mid to late 70's.

Also according to Eugene Stoner, he had explained the basics of an extended capacity magazine design to the Ichord Subcommittee as follows (verbatim): "...the shorter the magazine is, the less necessity there is for a curved magazine, and vice versa...a 30 round (Stoner System) magazine is curved and a curved magazine is the only system where you can get ideal feeding conditions through the full complement of the magazine, because the ammunition is slightly tapered and this follows the natural curve. If you laid the cartridges out on a table, this would be the arc, if you stacked them up, that they would go."

Also NOTE: (verbatim)on page 237 in the book "The Black Rifle" Subtitled "M16 Retrospective" By Stevens and Ezell, it states the following: Despite the numerous modifications to which the original AR-15 had been subjected, the dimensions of the magazine well area had remained untouched since the earliest days, and it was soon found that it was not so simple to design an extended capacity magazine for the M16A1. Colt's first 30 round M16A1 magazines were curved in an unbroken arc, but a problem awaited them upon their trials issue: they simply would not fit into the magazine wells of many existing AR-15s/M16/XM16E1s.

In March 1966 Co. Yount reported that due to Colts "inability to provide an operable 30 round magazine", the first few months' production of the XM177E1s/XM177E2s/"Commandos' were to be issued with regular 20 rounders. However, the other problems of the next sixteen months somewhat overshadowed the magazine project. In July 1967 Lt. Col. Engle, the acting Project Manager, recorded that a product improvement test was "suspended due to deficiencies found in the magazines. Colt's Inc,. is again reviewing the design and is scheduled to resubmit."

It appeared that the front of the magazine well of the rifle itself had not been too closely gauged or controlled in previous manufacture. In Gene Stoner's words"...at the time we didn't know better...I wish it (the capability to accept a fully curved magazine) had been put into the M16 rifle..."

The design finally chosen, Colts "Firearm box magazine with straight end and intermediate arctuate portions" was the best possible compromise, built somewhat along the lines of the WWII 30 round M2 Carbine magazine. However, it was 1969 before 30 round magazines first became available for issue.

Project: rifles (week of) 10-14 June 1968

30 round magazine: Colt's Inc. has signed a contract to produce 1,000 30 round magazines to be used in an initial production test. Delivery is anticipated in 6 1/2 months. A technical data package will be furnished by Colt under the terms of this contract at no cost to the government. This initial quantity...will be produced on hard tooling, so that immediately following the successful conclusion of the test mass production may be initiated.

Hope this helps guys.