When and why did the 30rd mag come about?

[MistWolf]

30 round magazines for the 7.62x51 have not proven to be as reliable as the 20 rounders because of the weight of the cartridges. Springs strong enough to provide reliable feeding exert enough pressure to deform the feed lips after awhile. The exception was the Bren mags as the mag fed the weapon from the top and used gravity and used weaker springs. HK 30 round mags usually work pretty good with their double feed lips, but not as consistently as the 20 rounders. And, as mentioned above, the extra length of a 30 round mag for an M14, FAL or HK91 could be a hindrance when shooting prone. I'd say going with a 20 round mag instead of a 30 was due to more than just "not getting the memo".

When the M14 and AR10 were designed, no one was using a 30 round magazine. What about the AK-47? The west didn't know about the AK until years after it's introduction. I believe it was first openly displayed during a military parade in Moscow in the mid to late fifties. Also, due to manufacturing problems, the AK was not issued in any significant numbers until 1956. The Soviets were still using Mosin Nagants and the SKS. Probably the PPHs as well.

During Vietnam, the Marines used the M14 and it's 20 round magazine to great affect and for the most part, they didn't feel under-gunned. Of course that was earlier in the war and the NVA was probably mostly equipped with Mosins and the SKS.

During the Bush Wars fought by Rhodesia and South Africa, the FAL with it's 20 round magazine dominated the battlefield and there, the terrs were using AKs. The Rhodies in particular were under-equipped and didn't always have the luxury of fixing the enemy in place with rifle so they could finish them with heavier weapons and/or airpower. They started and finished their fights with their FALs.

I had a brief correspondence with a former soldier who used a FAL against terrorists in one of the Iraqi wars. He said it's range and power gave him and his team mates a significant advantage over their AK equipped foes in the open terrain of the desert.

Other factors came into play, but it's interesting that the demand for a 30 round mag didn't arise until the the 7.62x51 was traded for the 5.56x45. Part of it may be with the greater controllability of the AR, the rate of fire went up and the 30 rounders were needed to keep up with the increased ammo consumption

[O3SKILL]

I think you just answered the OP's question!! The first 30-round AR magazine came shortly after, a soldier with a 20-round AR magazine encountered an enemy soldier, with a 30-round AK magazine. Especially, if the soldier was being fired upon by said 30-round AK magazine.

The soldier came back and said, why can't we have these, too?

At the 42:50 mark, Mr. Stoner confirms what is stated above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44_V9dOF5tg

[yellowfin]

A corollary question to this: why did it take us so long to adopt chest rigs as now known into US standard equipment when the Chinese came out with them in the 50's?

[Todd00000]

At the 42:50 mark, Mr. Stoner confirms what is stated above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44_V9dOF5tg

That was a great vid, and the one on the M-16 too.

[Todd00000]

A corollary question to this: why did it take us so long to adopt chest rigs as now known into US standard equipment when the Chinese came out with them in the 50's?

IMO the Cold War Army was focused on the anti-tank mission and the Infantry's only job in that fight was too keep our tanks alive, they were not focused on Infantry combat.

[ermac]

And last but not least if you are going to be using your AR in extreme cold use metal mags- and use a good cold weather lube on your weapon like TW25B

If the plastic on your magazines breaks in cold weather, then that probably means your stock,pistol grip, and handguards would also break. And if you're carrying firearm with a receiver or frame made out of polymer, then that would break also. What proof is there for such statements?

[ASH556]

If the plastic on your magazines breaks in cold weather, then that probably means your stock,pistol grip, and handguards would also break. And if you're carrying firearm with a receiver or frame made out of polymer, then that would break also. What proof is there for such statements?

Really, that's what you had to add to this thread? That by itself is retarded.

What's your experience to the contrary? Have you been in the AO's LAV has?

Finally, just using common sense, when's the last time you dropped your firearms furniture off of the weapon? Yet, magazines DO drop free (from a properly functioning weapon). How much spring tension or compression is on your stock or pistol grip? Oh, wait, none. How much is on the magazine? A whole lot more once its filled with ammo and the spring is fully compressed.

Roll on, Jackermac.

[ermac]

Really, that's what you had to add to this thread? That by itself is retarded.

What's your experience to the contrary? Have you been in the AO's LAV has?

Finally, just using common sense, when's the last time you dropped your firearms furniture off of the weapon? Yet, magazines DO drop free (from a properly functioning weapon). How much spring tension or compression is on your stock or pistol grip? Oh, wait, none. How much is on the magazine? A whole lot more once its filled with ammo and the spring is fully compressed.

Roll on, Jackermac.

I did not mean to offend you, sorry. I'm not questioning his experience, I just wanted some factual evidence to back up that claim. Stocks and pistol grips can get banged and broken. Perhaps my example of trying to compare a stock breaking in cold weather compared to the magazine was not the best, but I don't claim to be an expert.

[Dknight16]

Not directly related to the topic but: I found it interesting that an old co-worker of mine was never comfortable with the introduction of the 30 rounders in Vietnam. He only trusted the "18 rounders". Basically, his combat experience found that the 20s loaded with a max of quantity of 18 was the most reliable set-up. Any other Vietnam vets here ever hear of this?

[train of abuses]

If the plastic on your magazines breaks in cold weather, then that probably means your stock,pistol grip, and handguards would also break. And if you're carrying firearm with a receiver or frame made out of polymer, then that would break also. What proof is there for such statements?

Do you realize who you are addressing? I am not trying to be a smartass, but there is a reason a lot of the true experts on firearms and firearms trainers don't post much on internet forums. Stuff like this is an example. If someone with the knowledge and experience of Vickers makes a statement, then you can take it to the bank that there is a reason for him posting it.

Besides, I believe forum member Alaskapopo has demonstrated the same thing in the past.